Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by spanky4ever »

Kaiserklein wrote:Sioux are underrated because underplayed, just like otto. I don't think they are especially weak, they're just situational. But broken for sure, which is why some aspects of the civ are OP while some others are complete garbage.


Sioux have some good units, but terrible eco, little chance to defend homecity, no minutemen, no walls, no cannons, no factories - etc. Even so the original EP changes nerfed the bowriders. It really doesn't make any sense.
So - because of this, there where a big discussion (the 16 page thread) where all this was discussed. And despite of that, No changes where made to the civ in the new patch.
Btw: sioux are not underrated cos they are underplayed - you got that all wrong. They are underplayed cos they are not competitive. I would say they are not underrated, but more rated for what they are/have become.
They are underplayed cos they are not competitive, with very few exceptions (being H2o or Blackstar, or playing on decks with many trading posts IF you are fast enough to grab them).
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by zoom »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Show hidden quotes

+1

I think it's safe to say the majority of the team hates Sioux.

Yep, because it's a dumb and badly designed civ, just like you and your miserable life.
Why do you even post here? You think that being the new bpdscolony makes you important?
Please stop the pointless and mean flaming.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by _venox_ »

GIVE SIOUX STEEL TRAPS AND MAKE THEM GREAT AGAIN!!
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by zoom »

iwillspankyou wrote:
zoom wrote:More like Sioux is largely an unknown entity because nobody plays it.


More like nobody playes them COS THEY ARE NOT COMPETATIVE :ugeek:
No. The civilization is by far the least popular in the entire game – on either patch. This only makes even worse the fact that it is a niche civilization whose strength is difficult to determine in general, and when changed in particular. In other words, buffing Sioux is risky business, and it was decided to improve the state of balance before changing Sioux without knowing its strength.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

_venox_ wrote:GIVE SIOUX STEEL TRAPS AND MAKE THEM GREAT AGAIN!!

Not sure if you're joking but in case you aren't: that would fix nothing and giving steel traps is honestly just a lazy change. ASFP gave ports free hunting dogs and it broke the game.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by yemshi »

zoom wrote:No. The civilization is by far the least popular in the entire game – on either patch.
This only makes even worse the fact that it is a niche civilization whose strength is difficult to determine in general, and when changed in particular. In other words, buffing Sioux is risky business, and it was decided that to improve the state of balance before changing Sioux without knowing its strength.

No that's aztecs and iro.
What strength are you talking about btw? The only thing they really have is the dogsoldier big button.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by HeatitUP_ »

Just let them have their tourney and don't worry about it imo
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
zoom wrote:More like Sioux is largely an unknown entity because nobody plays it.


More like nobody playes them COS THEY ARE NOT COMPETATIVE :ugeek:
No. The civilization is by far the least popular in the entire game – on either patch. This only makes even worse the fact that it is a niche civilization whose strength is difficult to determine in general, and when changed in particular. In other words, buffing Sioux is risky business, and it was decided that to improve the state of balance before changing Sioux without knowing its strength.

For what its worth, I liked sioux better when it actually had to offer something unique in the form of bowrider raid build.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by spanky4ever »

zoom wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
zoom wrote:More like Sioux is largely an unknown entity because nobody plays it.


More like nobody plays them COS THEY ARE NOT COMPETATIVE :ugeek:
No. The civilization is by far the least popular in the entire game – on either patch. This only makes even worse the fact that it is a niche civilization whose strength is difficult to determine in general, and when changed in particular. In other words, buffing Sioux is risky business, and it was decided that to improve the state of balance before changing Sioux without knowing its strength.


Im not arguing that Sioux are not played as much as some other civs - but being played only once in a whole tournament AFTER THE EP CHANGES is something COMPLETELY different. I do not think you have any difficulty with seeing that :ugeek:
The Patch team could start with undoing the changes you did in the first place - and then have a look if they can make some additional changes to the eco - to make sioux a civ that could have a chance in age IV and V. (hint: eco + defense).
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by EAGLEMUT »

yemshi wrote:
zoom wrote:No. The civilization is by far the least popular in the entire game – on either patch.
This only makes even worse the fact that it is a niche civilization whose strength is difficult to determine in general, and when changed in particular. In other words, buffing Sioux is risky business, and it was decided that to improve the state of balance before changing Sioux without knowing its strength.


What strength are you talking about btw?


Exactly. He's saying the strength is unknown/difficult to determine.
Zoi, I think you overdid your English here, the word "that" in the last sentence cannot be used in this context and makes the statement confusing.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by _venox_ »

Sioux lacks many means to build a regular economy and their infantry in colonial is weak, spice trade is 20% upgrade to a high percentage of their early game resource income which buffs their eco, making 700w 600w and training infantry units more attractive. Besides tp boom they can't go water and can't boom in any other way than just 3v 4v and hunting dogs and placer mines which is absurd. Should they really have to send spice trade as a 125w 125g substitute because most other civs have decent market ups?
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

_venox_ wrote:Sioux lacks many means to build a regular economy and their infantry in colonial is weak, spice trade is 20% upgrade to a high percentage of their early game resource income which buffs their eco, making 700w 600w and training infantry units more attractive. Besides tp boom they can't go water and can't boom in any other way than just 3v 4v and hunting dogs and placer mines which is absurd. Should they really have to send spice trade as a 125w 125g substitute because most other civs have decent market ups?

They have faster units, design wise they gotta raid to balance the lack of economy but it doesn t work on esoc maps, what can we do?
Buff them so they have a good eco+ the ability to raid :P
Also keep in mind that they start with 200 pop, which means that they can easily take tps and save like 100w/min=> 200VS/min, that's huge.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Kaiserklein »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Sioux are underrated because underplayed, just like otto. I don't think they are especially weak, they're just situational. But broken for sure, which is why some aspects of the civ are OP while some others are complete garbage.


Sioux have some good units, but terrible eco, little chance to defend homecity, no minutemen, no walls, no cannons, no factories - etc. Even so the original EP changes nerfed the bowriders. It really doesn't make any sense.
So - because of this, there where a big discussion (the 16 page thread) where all this was discussed. And despite of that, No changes where made to the civ in the new patch.
Btw: sioux are not underrated cos they are underplayed - you got that all wrong. They are underplayed cos they are not competitive. I would say they are not underrated, but more rated for what they are/have become.
They are underplayed cos they are not competitive, with very few exceptions (being H2o or Blackstar, or playing on decks with many trading posts IF you are fast enough to grab them).


No, sioux are just underplayed. That's even a reason why h2o lost vs blackstar, because he thought sioux were trash tier just because no one played them while in the end they are decent. They're not weak. It's like saying azzy is a bad civ because it's underplayed, while in fact it's not a bad civ, it's very decent, and could probably be very good if more people played it. It's also an extremely easy civ to play
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by spanky4ever »

Kaiserklein wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Sioux are underrated because underplayed, just like otto. I don't think they are especially weak, they're just situational. But broken for sure, which is why some aspects of the civ are OP while some others are complete garbage.


Sioux have some good units, but terrible eco, little chance to defend homecity, no minutemen, no walls, no cannons, no factories - etc. Even so the original EP changes nerfed the bowriders. It really doesn't make any sense.
So - because of this, there where a big discussion (the 16 page thread) where all this was discussed. And despite of that, No changes where made to the civ in the new patch.
Btw: sioux are not underrated cos they are underplayed - you got that all wrong. They are underplayed cos they are not competitive. I would say they are not underrated, but more rated for what they are/have become.
They are underplayed cos they are not competitive, with very few exceptions (being H2o or Blackstar, or playing on decks with many trading posts IF you are fast enough to grab them).


No, sioux are just underplayed. That's even a reason why h2o lost vs blackstar, because he thought sioux were trash tier just because no one played them while in the end they are decent. They're not weak. It's like saying azzy is a bad civ because it's underplayed, while in fact it's not a bad civ, it's very decent, and could probably be very good if more people played it. It's also an extremely easy civ to play


Even though I can see that some OP players can surprise with playing sioux - and win, you still are very wrong

Ask yourself why Sioux are not played by you OP players? Garja play them sometimes - very rare though.
And I would argu that playing sioux is not very easy! Prove me wrong and go online and play them! I would love for you to show me how easy they are, and how compatible they are. Take this as a challange!!! And count me in to watch it :lol:
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Kaiserklein »

iwillspankyou wrote:Im not arguing that Sioux are not played as much as some other civs - but being played only once in a whole tournament AFTER THE EP CHANGES is something COMPLETELY different. I do not think you have any difficulty with seeing that :ugeek:
The Patch team could start with undoing the changes you did in the first place - and then have a look if they can make some additional changes to the eco - to make sioux a civ that could have a chance in age IV and V. (hint: eco + defense).

A decent amount of people actually play sioux in qs. It's the opposite, people play them less on ep, but on re they are not an unused civ. The problem being everyone using sioux in qs just spam brs like retards, so it's not relevant for balance because it just relies on mapscrews.
If you revert the changes you basically make it worse, with a retarded civ that produces only 1 unit. Even on ep bow riders are super strong, why would you buff them ? We might need to have a look at their eco somehow but no way we need to revert bow riders hp, it doesn't make much sense.
Buffing ages 4 and 5 is not really relevant, in a very large majority of your games you won't reach that stage. Sioux eco isn't even that bad btw, not really worse than azzy or iro who would ship 5 vils while you ship 4. And their free population space means they have more eco than what they seem since you don't have to pay for houses.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
_venox_ wrote:Sioux lacks many means to build a regular economy and their infantry in colonial is weak, spice trade is 20% upgrade to a high percentage of their early game resource income which buffs their eco, making 700w 600w and training infantry units more attractive. Besides tp boom they can't go water and can't boom in any other way than just 3v 4v and hunting dogs and placer mines which is absurd. Should they really have to send spice trade as a 125w 125g substitute because most other civs have decent market ups?

what can we do?

As you said, ESOC maps nerfed raiding in general. Therefore reverting the bow rider nerf would be a good place to start.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by spanky4ever »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
_venox_ wrote:Sioux lacks many means to build a regular economy and their infantry in colonial is weak, spice trade is 20% upgrade to a high percentage of their early game resource income which buffs their eco, making 700w 600w and training infantry units more attractive. Besides tp boom they can't go water and can't boom in any other way than just 3v 4v and hunting dogs and placer mines which is absurd. Should they really have to send spice trade as a 125w 125g substitute because most other civs have decent market ups?

They have faster units, design wise they gotta raid to balance the lack of economy but it doesn t work on esoc maps, what can we do?
Buff them so they have a good eco+ the ability to raid :P
Also keep in mind that they start with 200 pop, which means that they can easily take tps and save like 100w/min=> 200VS/min, that's huge.


Sure Sioux has fast units - they have cav. But so do every other civ (exept azt). But Sioux cav are very costly - and the eco is very poor! not a great combo :hmm:
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Kaiserklein »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
Show hidden quotes


No, sioux are just underplayed. That's even a reason why h2o lost vs blackstar, because he thought sioux were trash tier just because no one played them while in the end they are decent. They're not weak. It's like saying azzy is a bad civ because it's underplayed, while in fact it's not a bad civ, it's very decent, and could probably be very good if more people played it. It's also an extremely easy civ to play


Even though I can see that some OP players can surprise with playing sioux - and win, you still are very wrong

Ask yourself why Sioux are not played by you OP players? Garja play them sometimes - very rare though.
And I would argu that playing sioux is not very easy! Prove me wrong and go online and play them! I would love for you to show me how easy they are, and how compatible they are. Take this as a challange!!! And count me in to watch it :lol:

You think I'm wrong, that's actually very different.
Sioux aren't played because they are a shit civ. Just like no one plays otto, it's not interesting at all. Because for one thing, if you played that on RE you were considered a lamer, so a lot of people haven't learned those civs. And for another, the civ design is just bad. Making only 1 unit isn't interesting. Ask yourself why almost no one plays iro on RE, even though it is easily the lamest civ you can find ? Because it's unfun, because you get flamed, not because it's weak.
I got nothing to prove, I'm not going to play that civ either way. I don't have time to waste with this kind of civ. And for the record everyone knows sioux is easy as fuck, you can just ship crates, mass and raid, what is hard ? You don't have to build houses, you don't really have to mix units... You even have the easiest age 1 in the game. I'm not even sure it's harder than otto.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by spanky4ever »

@Kaiserklein said:
people play them less on ep, but on re they are not an unused civ.

Does that tell you anything?? No brainier to me! :dry:
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Kaiserklein »

iwillspankyou wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
_venox_ wrote:Sioux lacks many means to build a regular economy and their infantry in colonial is weak, spice trade is 20% upgrade to a high percentage of their early game resource income which buffs their eco, making 700w 600w and training infantry units more attractive. Besides tp boom they can't go water and can't boom in any other way than just 3v 4v and hunting dogs and placer mines which is absurd. Should they really have to send spice trade as a 125w 125g substitute because most other civs have decent market ups?

They have faster units, design wise they gotta raid to balance the lack of economy but it doesn t work on esoc maps, what can we do?
Buff them so they have a good eco+ the ability to raid :P
Also keep in mind that they start with 200 pop, which means that they can easily take tps and save like 100w/min=> 200VS/min, that's huge.


Sure Sioux has fast units - they have cav. But so do every other civ (exept azt). But Sioux cav are very costly - and the eco is very poor! not a great combo :hmm:

Sioux cav is 15% faster than other cav (except camels), so it's different. Axe riders are cheap (160f 40g) and bow riders are super cost efficient, even with the nerf. They're also ranged cav in colonial, which is really good.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Kaiserklein »

iwillspankyou wrote:@Kaiserklein said:
people play them less on ep, but on re they are not an unused civ.

Does that tell you anything?? No brainier to me! :dry:

Because all lamers who play sioux in qs don't come play on ep.......... They stay in qs and carry on the laming. Just like you don't have nearly as many people playing otto on ep, while there are lot on RE, because this kind of lamer stays in qs. It's logical
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by spanky4ever »

Kaiserklein wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Even though I can see that some OP players can surprise with playing sioux - and win, you still are very wrong

Ask yourself why Sioux are not played by you OP players? Garja play them sometimes - very rare though.
And I would argu that playing sioux is not very easy! Prove me wrong and go online and play them! I would love for you to show me how easy they are, and how compatible they are. Take this as a challange!!! And count me in to watch it :lol:

You think I'm wrong, that's actually very different.
Sioux aren't played because they are a shit civ. Just like no one plays otto, it's not interesting at all. Because for one thing, if you played that on RE you were considered a lamer, so a lot of people haven't learned those civs. And for another, the civ design is just bad. Making only 1 unit isn't interesting. Ask yourself why almost no one plays iro on RE, even though it is easily the lamest civ you can find ? Because it's unfun, because you get flamed, not because it's weak.
I got nothing to prove, I'm not going to play that civ either way. I don't have time to waste with this kind of civ. And for the record everyone knows sioux is easy as fuck, you can just ship crates, mass and raid, what is hard ? You don't have to build houses, you don't really have to mix units... You even have the easiest age 1 in the game. I'm not even sure it's harder than otto.


My guess is that you do not know the civ, have almost/never played them, and yet you upgrade yourself to some kind of expert on sioux! You say you do not have the time - (I for one, think you are full of it!)
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

I honestly think even on RE patch where sioux shines is the 11min DS BB timing slamming in 7 DS + ~15 vet AR + 5 RR (ship) + 5 BR (from colonial) where you alternate between war dance and siege dance. I dont think the civ is broken on the lt./capt level. Possible strat for the next tourney is on klondike, take tp as standard, try and control centre and drop teepees on the exposed gold mines and gold starve the opponent, (force them to push out of base). [there is only 2K gold in base and no other extremly close mine]
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by HeatitUP_ »

Lets not forget we have to learn all new maps and the match-ups are probably way different. I played a game on a few maps and had no idea how different it was from the RE maps so there's just too much information to learn there unless you were involved in patching the civs or making the maps.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by zoom »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
yemshi wrote:
zoom wrote:No. The civilization is by far the least popular in the entire game – on either patch.
This only makes even worse the fact that it is a niche civilization whose strength is difficult to determine in general, and when changed in particular. In other words, buffing Sioux is risky business, and it was decided that to improve the state of balance before changing Sioux without knowing its strength.


What strength are you talking about btw?


Exactly. He's saying the strength is unknown/difficult to determine.
Zoi, I think you overdid your English here, the word "that" in the last sentence cannot be used in this context and makes the statement confusing.
Yup, I dun goofed. Tanks!

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