Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

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New Zealand zoom
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:What initial assumptions are wrong then? Can you tell me how sioux would beat a musk timing push?
I've no idea what assumptions are wrong. For that purpose, I'd try Bow Riders and Cetans first.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
Jerom wrote:Image

Looks like you used the wrong values for both units.

impressive!
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
Jerom wrote:What initial assumptions are wrong then? Can you tell me how sioux would beat a musk timing push?
I've no idea what assumptions are wrong. For that purpose, I'd try Bow Riders and Cetans first.

I dont think anyone will succeed in convincing me sioux colonial is legitemately competitive. But you may try.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Garja »

None is even trying I think.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

Then why is the state of sioux fine? I dont get it at all. Can't defend any serious musk push without being forced to play colonial, a colonial which is basically the worst colonial in the game. Its just a shitty civ then?
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by deleted_user0 »

dafuq sioux can defeat musk pushes just fine, if the map is decent and they have a mine in back of base or close to tc.

also sioux colo rush is pretty decent. dunno if its competitive though, because its a bit cheesy and not that hard to counter if you know its coming. but if its unscouted it can win games in 8 mins.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

Teach me master.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Jerom wrote:Teach me master.


sure. come online and we can play

i beat cramper's musk cdb push yesterday. and thats one of the scariest timings sioux can face.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

Yes cramper told me about that but then still claimed my assumptions were right, or well agreed with them. So thats why I posted them here.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Garja »

Sioux state is not fine btw
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by britishmusketeer »

Jerom wrote:Actually, wakina rifles are pretty cool. High attack, lower hp but they're cheaper too. I recall now that I meant to make a comparison between them and skirms.

They are actually bad. Not because of stats but because of low range.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by deleted_user0 »

ye. their speed was supposed to make up for it, but it doesnt really work cuz they should have 5 speed (or 4.5 atleast). and higher with WC aura. but instead they have 4 speed... which sux. concept is nice tho.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Jerom wrote:Yes cramper told me about that but then still claimed my assumptions were right, or well agreed with them. So thats why I posted them here.


what are your assumptions?

sioux is totally capable of playing vs musk rushes. its boomy turtles with walls that they cant deal with. and almost any civ can do that.

also high eco timing pushes with mixed infantry units (ranged and heavy) is something they do poor vs. as well as goon skir
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

So then instead of broken theyre just shit?
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Jerom wrote:So then instead of broken theyre just shit?


no the other way around. theyre not shit, theyre broken. they can't lose to some things and they can't win vs some things. and it doesnt really matter how you play.

like the worst thing u can do vs sioux is take a fight. but as long as u sit in base you cant lose. and any civ can get a better eco on mills than sioux can on natural res. so as long as u have like 2 mines and a few hunts so u can get Indus without startving, you just win. ofc u need to wall and tower up but thats np.

come on btw?
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Jaeger »

umeu wrote:
Jerom wrote:So then instead of broken theyre just shit?


no the other way around. theyre not shit, theyre broken. they can't lose to some things and they can't win vs some things. and it doesnt really matter how you play.

like the worst thing u can do vs sioux is take a fight. but as long as u sit in base you cant lose. and any civ can get a better eco on mills than sioux can on natural res. so as long as u have like 2 mines and a few hunts so u can get Indus without startving, you just win. ofc u need to wall and tower up but thats np.

come on btw?


Well acer tried that vs h2o in winter and he got rekt. And i'm not sure if it wouldve been much different if it was 3 TP's instead of 5. Anyway, HP is maybe an exception
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Goodspeed »

For anyone who still thinks we are not planning to deal with Sioux: we are. Can we move on? There is an entire thread dedicated to Sioux discussion in the patch forums (viewtopic.php?f=159&t=3430) and we do intend to change them in the next patch. We can't do everything at once, and if we tried we would mess it all up. Again, we won't make the same mistakes ASFP made. A little patience and trust would go a long way.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

I dont want to be captain hindsight but looking back you had the time to go through 2 iterations between winter and autumn.

Also im personally mostly against the extra changes to weird civs. Leave them weird, I think its better that way.

Although the pace of balancing and methods of testing, aswell as partially the underlying philosofy frustrate me a little, I do think the balance moves forward step by step. Given the tendency to overrate changes by a bit, I think the balance might be down to three tiers; strong civs, slightly handicapped civs but still very playable and iro/sioux/otto.

Although maybe otto is decent enough. But realistically, germany and france have been taken from the top and placed somewhere above iro/sioux according to the public's opinion so the balance just straight up improved.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by deleted_user0 »

so in honor of jerom's bitching on sioux, i hereby release a small sioux pack!
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by KINGofOsmane »

lame
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Goodspeed »

The pace can feel a little slow but this is because there is a lot to fix, not a lot of testing going on, and balance changes simply need time to settle. I can't stress enough how big of a mistake it is for a balance team to try and balance everything at once without leaving the metagame time to adjust. ASFP 1.0 was the answer to everything at the time, and yet the tournament that was played on it was nothing but Iro mirrors. Then ASFP 1.2 was David Kim reincarnate but in reality India and Iro were useless and Brits and Sioux ran over everything. You can complain all you want but we are not repeating their mistakes on my watch. To you our changes may seem arbitrary, but a lot of thought went into them as well as RTS balance/design in general. I'll be worried when balance turns out to be actually as bad as on RE patch or previous fan patches. For right now I have no reason to believe this is the case.

That said some good points have been brought up ITT and we are always working to improve our process. I just feel like a lot of the feedback could've been more respectful, and am personally getting about as frustrated by it than some of you are about the (lack of) changes.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

Cool. Bitching been useful.

Tbh Im just making a line of thought based on a few assumptions, which in turn are based on what ive experienced or heard other players say. Its not really bitching as much as presenting that logic. It turned into bitching when there was a complete lack of decent response to that logic.

At least you gave decent feedback umea.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by deleted_user0 »

ppl just need to stop doing what ryan does all the time and start getting more creative. just dont go FUBAR like aiz.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

Goodspeed wrote:The pace can feel a little slow but this is because there is a lot to fix, not a lot of testing going on, and balance changes simply need time to settle. I can't stress enough how big of a mistake it is for a balance team to try and balance everything at once without leaving the metagame time to adjust. ASFP 1.0 was the answer to everything at the time, and yet the tournament that was played on it was nothing but Iro mirrors. Then ASFP 1.2 was David Kim reincarnate but in reality India and Iro were useless and Brits and Sioux ran over everything. You can complain all you want but we are not repeating their mistakes on my watch. To you our changes may seem arbitrary, but a lot of thought went into them as well as RTS balance/design in general. I'll be worried when balance turns out to be actually as bad as on RE patch or previous fan patches. For right now I have no reason to believe this is the case.

That said some good points have been brought up ITT and we are always working to improve our process. I just feel like a lot of the feedback could've been more respectful, and am personally getting about as frustrated by it than some of you are about the (lack of) changes.

I mean the problem is that the method of balancing is arguing amongst a group of people that doesnt want to or cant seem to agree tbh.

Realistically replacing arguing by just doing some damned testing, however small it may be, might be more effective. The beta worked very well actually.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Goodspeed »

Which is why we moved to more of a public beta way of testing things and have monitored public threads about each civ as well as posted public polls about the state of balance. Discussion among top players is still very valuable though, because these players have by far the best ideas about the state of balance and how to fix it.

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