Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

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Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

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Post by Mitoe »

Hey guys, I'm not going to lie: I'm pretty frustrated with the most recent version of EP.

There are a few changes that make sense: nerfing France/Germany for example. And though I no longer think nerfing those two civs was necessarily the correct way to attempt to balance the game, nerfing them is one method I guess and does actually make sense.

However, there are a few changes that just feel like a half-assed attempt to balance the game, or to just change things for the sake of changing things.

I would like to hear what everyone has to think about the current patch notes, but first, here are my thoughts:

- Native Scout snare effect removed.
Ok. So the native scout is now completely different and a very uninteractive unit in age 1. In previous patches you had to play slightly differently vs France to avoid fighting the scout or to escape it, now you can just pretend like it doesn't exist. It wasn't even a balance issue. The number of times someone actually lost a game because of the native scout snaring you is very very low. I feel like this change is just popular because people don't like having to play differently vs the scout, and all this change does is remove some of the skill from the early game.

Ports - Genitours home-city shipment decreased from +6 range to +5 range.
...
This actually just accomplishes nothing? Jinetes with this card are still unbelievably strong, arguably no weaker at all from previous patches.

Russia - Settler batch cost decreased from 270f to 255f.
"17 Strelets" home-city shipment increased to 20 Strelets.

Ok. You now save maybe 200f per game, assuming the game hasn't already ended at the 8 minute mark as many Russian games do. And people think this civ is broken now? It was considered the worst civ last patch by many and it still is. A disappointing and unoriginal change.

Also the unsendable (because it's bad) Strelet card is still unsendable. Nice.

Spain - "Unction" home-city shipment damage-aura effect decreased from 5% to 4% per Missionary (i.e. maximum potential damage increase reduced from ~63% to ~48%). Missionary cost decreased from 100w, 100c to 50w, 50c.
Just... why? In what universe was this change actually necessary? This change feels like a change where someone said "hey it would be cool if this was viable, so let's buff it" instead of actually addressing issues with the civ.


And then there's the disappointing LACK of changes.

India - Weak civ remains weak because people are afraid of buffing and making it strong.
Sioux - The same.
Iroquois - Got some very minor buffs, but realistically didn't solve any of the civ's problems. The same problem.
Otto - Well... I don't know anything about this civ so I won't talk. At least the jan nerf got reverted?


Overall this patch just feels like nothing changed, except that France and Germany are weaker. There are still some clear top civs and some clear bottom feeders. Feel free to disagree with me, but in my opinion these changes just simply don't make sense.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Rikikipu »

Again, I got the feeling, but I don't know much about balancing teams, that the method we got to discuss things is bad, and these methods bring at the end not great changes.
Talking about the changes :
1) I agree with you about the native scout, even though this unit is a bit lame. So it requires more skill for the french player to kill the other opponent hero.
2) I agree with the fact that -1 range is useless haha
3) I'm not a russian player, so Idk.
4) the unction card may adress the issues of the civ, but we don't know, because as far as I know, I've never seen someone using it. It should be checked before to say that it doesn't make spain good. Also I don't think this civ got some issues really.

About the other civs :
1)India Idk, I don't play this civ, I can't say it's a bad civ or not
2) Yeah I guess sioux need some fixes
3) Iroquois I agree. Btw, we should keep in mind the idea of letting them as they were in RE. I think that the ESOC maps, + the tp meta of other civs, + the fact that people knows how to defend well now wouldn't make them as OP as they were on EP. Afterall we can see that spain FF on nilla, and otto FF on nilla/TAD were the way to go in tourneys by the past, and was OP so, and now no one does it. At least we could try and see what's happening instead of directly nerfing them.
4)i'm an otto player, and I think they are fine. Not a top civ, but average for sure.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by iNcog »

NB: Most of my posting in this thread is mostly based on observing tournament games and discussing things with higher level players. I don't play but I can read forums just fine.

I don't care much about some changes but for me, Port Genitours should be +4 range. The idea is that "would you send a card which gives your dragoons +4 range?" and the answer is "yes", so that makes the card worth it still.

Russia is a controversial civilization because some people think they're OK, some people think they're trash. Doesn't a small boost make them slightly better? Disregarding the Strelki card, no matter how you look at it, the villager cost adjustment should make Russia slightly easier in the early game without really affecting their late colonial scaling. I think Russia really comes down to whether or not you think the civ is weak and also, especially, whether or not the civilization actually IS weak. Which I think it's not, personally. I mean if we could have a BO9 against pure Russian and them losing consistently in such a series (both players need to play Russia, I guess), then yeah I guess they suck. Imo they aren't that bad, there were some good games with them last tournament against France.

Native scout snare is something which I don't personally care too much about, but I will disagree with this: "The number of times someone actually lost a game because of the native scout snaring you is very very low." That half-naked fuck has made me rage and tilt more than once when he kills my explorer before I can get those TPs up. I'm not interested in running away from French explorers and their shitty scout, not picking up good treasures, etc, because of the scout. Probably why this is one of those changes which is "popular" rather than "important". It's there to improve EP marketability.

I'd have personally also (but this is almost solely my view, rofl) not nerfed France or Germany in the first place. I'd have just buffed other civs progressively until they were all competitive. France and Germany aren't free-win civs like Iroq or Otto on RE are.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Garja »

Native scout snare was simply the best change.
Port genitours should have been -2
Russia vill cost is big deal actually.
Spain unction is unecessary after then ther changes.
Iroquouis are like one step away from the RE version so I dont know what people complain about.
India is not weak, strong units and strong eco.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Mitoe »

iNcog wrote:Russia is a controversial civilization because some people think they're OK, some people think they're trash. Doesn't a small boost make them slightly better? Disregarding the Strelki card, no matter how you look at it, the villager cost adjustment should make Russia slightly easier in the early game without really affecting their late colonial scaling. I think Russia really comes down to whether or not you think the civ is weak and also, especially, whether or not the civilization actually IS weak. Which I think it's not, personally. I mean if we could have a BO9 against pure Russian and them losing consistently in such a series (both players need to play Russia, I guess), then yeah I guess they suck. Imo they aren't that bad, there were some good games with them last tournament against France.

I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind the change. Russia already has a decent mid-game and a strong late-game, this change helps that out too.

I feel like the reason the change was made was to negate the idle time Russia often has in age 1 when trying to do a 14v age up, but +100f just seems like a much better change in that regard?

In any case, I don't think the change was actually enough to fix Russia. I would've liked to see something like +500hp on blockhouses or something too.

Native scout snare is something which I don't personally care too much about, but I will disagree with this: "The number of times someone actually lost a game because of the native scout snaring you is very very low." That half-naked fuck has made me rage and tilt more than once when he kills my explorer before I can get those TPs up. I'm not interested in running away from French explorers and their shitty scout, not picking up good treasures, etc, because of the scout. Probably why this is one of those changes which is "popular" rather than "important". It's there to improve EP marketability.

You have to play differently vs France in age 1 because of the native scout. That's not a bad thing. Now you just pretend it doesn't exist and move on with your life. All it did was make the scout a boring unit, IMO.

I'd have personally also (but this is almost solely my view, rofl) not nerfed France or Germany in the first place. I'd have just buffed other civs progressively until they were all competitive. France and Germany aren't free-win civs like Iroq or Otto on RE are.

Exactly! This is exactly what I would've liked to see done! Most civs that are average or bad just feel awkward to play. Ger and France weren't like that, but now they are: they are much more limited than before because of it, which makes them much more one-dimensional. And playing awkward civs is less fun anyway.

If we were to just work on improving other civs, the game would be much more diverse and a much better game.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Mitoe »

Garja wrote:Native scout snare was simply the best change.

...Scout #1 balance issue confirmed.

Russia vill cost is big deal actually.

Even if it does turn out that this is true, I don't believe it was the best change. It was an awkward change meant to address their early game, but also affects their already strong mid-late game.

Port genitours should have been -2
Spain unction is unecessary after then ther changes.

Agree.

Iroquouis are like one step away from the RE version so I dont know what people complain about.
India is not weak, strong units and strong eco.

Balance polls and tournament results disagree.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

+100f for russia makes super fast rushes stronger however, which isnt something you'd necessarily want to encourage.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Mitoe »

You would still have to age with 14 vills, so no? o.O
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by lordraphael »

Mitoe wrote:
Garja wrote:Native scout snare was simply the best change.

...Scout #1 balance issue confirmed.

Russia vill cost is big deal actually.

Even if it does turn out that this is true, I don't believe it was the best change. It was an awkward change meant to address their early game, but also affects their already strong mid-late game.

Port genitours should have been -2
Spain unction is unecessary after then ther changes.

Agree.

Iroquouis are like one step away from the RE version so I dont know what people complain about.
India is not weak, strong units and strong eco.

Balance polls and tournament results disagree.

mitoe you and ryan are the only 2 guys on aoe who doesnt like the nat scout nerf, pls just accept it.

Yea +100food would probably be the more cleaner change and also a lot more easier to evaluate. But that doesnt mean that this change is a bad change. However i do agree probably we should have first tried +100 food and then tried it with another/different buff ( discount on vills ) if +100 food hadnt been enough.

Port gen range nerf should have been definetly +2, im not exactly sure who argued for only +1 but there must have been a controversial discussion about it, otherwise we wouldnt be talking about this.

Spain unction is totally unnecessary for 1v1, however for team its an okaish change that makes spain overall just stronger. The unction change is also a change where you can ask yourself: " Does it make the game worse if missionaries actually can be usefull sometimes, maybe even in 1v1,or does it make the game better simply becasue more potential options are better for any game. "

sioux: Probably just revert bowrider nerf before this tourney then see how everyone is using them in tourney and crying :"OP".

India: quite frankly if india were to be buffed i would seriously considering a sepoy nerf. Becasue thats what most people are afraid of that any buff to india will make them like they were on RE.

Otto: No one wants to even talk about this civ and i have already expressed the opinion that otto could only be balanced by a revamp of their economic options which would include quite a lot of changes and would also require testing.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Mitoe »

Pretty sure unction is actually really good in 1v1 now though. Especially if Spain goes for an age 2 oriented ATP build.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:Hey guys, I'm not going to lie: I'm pretty frustrated with the most recent version of EP.

There are a few changes that make sense: nerfing France/Germany for example. And though I no longer think nerfing those two civs was necessarily the correct way to attempt to balance the game, nerfing them is one method I guess and does actually make sense.

However, there are a few changes that just feel like a half-assed attempt to balance the game, or to just change things for the sake of changing things.

I would like to hear what everyone has to think about the current patch notes, but first, here are my thoughts:

- Native Scout snare effect removed.
Ok. So the native scout is now completely different and a very uninteractive unit in age 1. In previous patches you had to play slightly differently vs France to avoid fighting the scout or to escape it, now you can just pretend like it doesn't exist. It wasn't even a balance issue. The number of times someone actually lost a game because of the native scout snaring you is very very low. I feel like this change is just popular because people don't like having to play differently vs the scout, and all this change does is remove some of the skill from the early game.

Ports - Genitours home-city shipment decreased from +6 range to +5 range.
...
This actually just accomplishes nothing? Jinetes with this card are still unbelievably strong, arguably no weaker at all from previous patches.

Russia - Settler batch cost decreased from 270f to 255f.
"17 Strelets" home-city shipment increased to 20 Strelets.

Ok. You now save maybe 200f per game, assuming the game hasn't already ended at the 8 minute mark as many Russian games do. And people think this civ is broken now? It was considered the worst civ last patch by many and it still is. A disappointing and unoriginal change.

Also the unsendable (because it's bad) Strelet card is still unsendable. Nice.

Spain - "Unction" home-city shipment damage-aura effect decreased from 5% to 4% per Missionary (i.e. maximum potential damage increase reduced from ~63% to ~48%). Missionary cost decreased from 100w, 100c to 50w, 50c.
Just... why? In what universe was this change actually necessary? This change feels like a change where someone said "hey it would be cool if this was viable, so let's buff it" instead of actually addressing issues with the civ.


And then there's the disappointing LACK of changes.

India - Weak civ remains weak because people are afraid of buffing and making it strong.
Sioux - The same.
Iroquois - Got some very minor buffs, but realistically didn't solve any of the civ's problems. The same problem.
Otto - Well... I don't know anything about this civ so I won't talk. At least the jan nerf got reverted?


Overall this patch just feels like nothing changed, except that France and Germany are weaker. There are still some clear top civs and some clear bottom feeders. Feel free to disagree with me, but in my opinion these changes just simply don't make sense.
It's a little frustrating to see you still disregarding what I've explained to you myself with regards to the logic of the changes. Especially considering you are yet to respond to it, let alone even read it, supposedly.

Naive American Scout snare was removed because it's a highly popular change with a more or less positive effect on balance. If I considered only my own opinion, I would have not made this change, but I don't mind its inclusion either.

The Genitours nerf decreases the distance between the Dragoon and its target by one unit of range. That's literally what the change accomplishes – Dragoons are now a little easier to reach. The card is supposed to be strong, and nerfing it more than is deemed necessary would be a shame so let's start out small and tweak it if desirable. Keep in mind to view this change in combination with the Dragoon nerf, and that nerfing Genitours is also highly popular. With that said, I did make better suggestions for nerfing the shipment.

On the Russians Settler Batch cost buff, I repeat myself:
The idea of this buff is a minor impact on the consistency of the civilization's Colonial Age advancement, and a marginal impact on anything else. Really, it barely has any effect on the "mid-late game" because as the civilization's economy grows – and the later the benefit occurs – the less relevant the effect becomes. On the whole, it's a slight, generic buff in keeping with Russians' design, without making "17-ups" obsolete.
I find it intelligent, effective and simple. While calling it unoriginal isn't necessarily wrong, it bewilders me that you would employ that opinion as criticism against a change, having consistently disapproved of changes for being original in the past. In what other way do you find this to be a disappointing change?

The buff to the Fortress Age Strelet shipment could easily have been left out as non-essential, although in my opinion the shipment is now strong. As long as others consider it viable it's not pointless either.

The Unction buff has also been explained many times – including by myself. While hardly essential, it offers a more viable investment option – which was considered an actual issue of the civilization. It also helps in team-games, where Spanish is one of the weaker civilizations. It could have been left out, but assuming that it's not vastly overpowered (which you make no allusion to), I see nothing negative about it. By the way, do you know what on the other does not actually address issues of the civilization? Buffing Fortress Age unit shipments!

As far as other civilizations are concerned, I'm all for testing more changes. I'm actually starting to consider whether we should revert the nerfs to French and Germans and buff the other civilizations to their level instead, simply because how unpopular the nerfs to these civilizations appear to be. Of course (as I've mentioned many a time) this approach has obvious drawbacks.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by lordraphael »

Mitoe wrote:Pretty sure unction is actually really good in 1v1 now though. Especially if Spain goes for an age 2 oriented ATP build.

apart from the fact that we dont know that becasue no one has tested it yet. Would it be a bad thing if spain had viable age 2 options at last. I cant imagine that spain goes from a bottom colonial civ to an OP one with this change, but then again one would have to test that.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

1) The Native snare is a change everybody likes

2) You and kaiser cry because of -10 hp for uhlans, I can tell you that 1 range means more than 10 HP lol, it's better than nothing and you can't destroy port's uniqueness

3) The change helps a lot, believe me, now as France or Germany it's hard to beat russia, I guess you haven't played Russia enough. The 20strel change is just useless but it's not an issue.

4) It helps in team, where spain was a bad civ, even if it was useless, what's the problem, it's a new spain bonus.

5) India, yeah it's trash tier but the community thinks that they are good, so what can we do?
It's not fair to blame the team for this, blame Couprider, ramex, veni and the others who say that it's the best civ.

6) Sioux, are they really bad? I'm not sure about that, and some people think that they're pretty good.

7) I agree but garja says that they're good, nothing I can do...

8) I haven't played otto so idk either, no issue.

I don't see huge balance issues. What are the top civs? To me Japan, China, Aztec, Spain, fre, ger, port, russia and brit are more or less in the same tier.
The only up civs I see are india and iro, but I told you why we can't change it.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Garja »

Mitoe wrote:...Scout #1 balance issue confirmed.

Aside from the fact that it does raise balance concerns, it is about the huge benefit of a simple fix, as well as a matter of principle, because it restores the original role of the native scout.
Even if it does turn out that this is true, I don't believe it was the best change. It was an awkward change meant to address their early game, but also affects their already strong mid-late game.

Ye I never said it is the best change. 100f also has its drawbacks anyway.

Balance polls and tournament results disagree.

Iro weren't fixed last tourney. Also none plays them so I dont know exactly on what people are basing their votes in the poll.
India doesn't have a bad tourney record. And again who plays India enough to say that it is weak.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:India doesn't have a bad tourney record. And again who plays India enough to say that it is weak.

Mankle, Mitoe and me used to play india a lot but we all stopped because it's simply too weak, that's why nobody plays them.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Aizamk »

Sheep will be sheep :flowers:
oranges.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Garja »

You guys used to play India in the most predictable way ever tho, and used to compare that with semi FF civs that now are nerfed. Actually aside from French, Germans and Ports India doesn't really have bad MUs
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by jesus3 »

As being jesus, not a pro though, I also feel the awkwardness of german or france making me not want to play them anymore. Cant underlay this with stats or something, just thought i had to agree on that aspect. Blessings
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:You guys used to play India in tge most predictable way ever tho, and used to compare that with semi FF civs that now are nerfed. Actually aside from French, Germans and Ports India doesn't really have bad MUs

Japan, arguably China, aztecs, they don't win easily vs iro/sioux but they're trash too so nobody care, and they lose otto, dutch and spain.
The only MUs they might win vs good civs are brit and russia, and it's still very close.
You gotta be predictable in aoe3, that's the same for every civs sadly. But what can you do vs semi ff?
Rush? That's what we used to do.
Late colonial play? How do you kill the falcs and keep a good skirm count?
ff? No.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

jesus3 wrote:As being jesus, not a pro though, I also feel the awkwardness of german or france making me not want to play them anymore. Cant underlay this with stats or something, just thought i had to agree on that aspect. Blessings

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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by WickedCossack »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:India doesn't have a bad tourney record. And again who plays India enough to say that it is weak.

Mankle, Mitoe and me used to play india a lot but we all stopped because it's simply too weak, that's why nobody plays them.


Hullo.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

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Somebody call sudmakmak!
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:Japan, arguably China, aztecs, they don't win easily vs iro/sioux but they're trash too so nobody care, and they lose otto, dutch and spain.
The only MUs they might win vs good civs are brit and russia, and it's still very close.
You gotta be predictable in aoe3, that's the same for every civs sadly. But what can you do vs semi ff?
Rush? That's what we used to do.
Late colonial play? How do you kill the falcs and keep a good skirm count?
ff? No.

Japan should be rather easy unless the map is huge. China is also doable, either with rush or straight FF of your own. Aztecs can be hard but can be also rather easy (depends on starting conditions to quite some degree). I don't think they lose to Otto on these maps and with the abus nerf, it is possible tho. They don't necessarily lose vs Dutch, even just a semi FF is ok vs them. Vs Spain they might lose now that Spain got 5 and 4 lancers but I'm not even sure. It is basically like Spain vs Japan.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

WickedCossack wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:India doesn't have a bad tourney record. And again who plays India enough to say that it is weak.

Mankle, Mitoe and me used to play india a lot but we all stopped because it's simply too weak, that's why nobody plays them.


Hullo.

You still play them but you agree that they are bad, so it's the same.
Also eventhough you're a very good player, you don't play the game competively, you don't tryhard to win tourneys or to reach a big elo, so we can't see how well you do with india :(
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Japan, arguably China, aztecs, they don't win easily vs iro/sioux but they're trash too so nobody care, and they lose otto, dutch and spain.
The only MUs they might win vs good civs are brit and russia, and it's still very close.
You gotta be predictable in aoe3, that's the same for every civs sadly. But what can you do vs semi ff?
Rush? That's what we used to do.
Late colonial play? How do you kill the falcs and keep a good skirm count?
ff? No.

Japan should be rather easy unless the map is huge. China is also doable, either with rush or straight FF of your own. Aztecs can be hard but can be also rather easy (depends on starting conditions to quite some degree). I don't think they lose to Otto on these maps and with the abus nerf, it is possible tho. They don't necessarily lose vs Dutch, even just a semi FF is ok vs them. Vs Spain they might lose now that Spain got 5 and 4 lancers but I'm not even sure. It is basically like Spain vs Japan.

Japan should never be easy lol, the rush doesn't work.
China is doable, but China favoured.
Hum, aztecs is hard most of the time I'd say xD.
Last time I tested india vs otto, with goongoon (1 year ago), I lost quite hard.
No, the semi ff is just not ok and dutch players don't wall lol, that's why they struggle vs rushes.

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