Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

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Great Britain I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

iwillspankyou wrote:
I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:I honestly think even on RE patch where sioux shines is the 11min DS BB timing slamming in 7 DS + ~15 vet AR + 5 RR (ship) + 5 BR (from colonial) where you alternate between war dance and siege dance. I dont think the civ is broken on the lt./capt level. Possible strat for the next tourney is on klondike, take tp as standard, try and control centre and drop teepees on the exposed gold mines and gold starve the opponent, (force them to push out of base). [there is only 2K gold in base and no other extremly close mine]

If that where the case - I guess most ppl would play sioux -
How often do you play them - and if you dont - why not if you think they are so OP :?: :?:


I like to mix between sioux german spanish and maybe french/china very rarely, My two mains are easily German and sioux. German is standard but i like sioux as its different, has a very forward aggressive mentality and multiple options however i feel that in 95% of my games im looking to go fortress as a semi ff. I wouldnt class them as OP at all, probably average at best which gets worse vs. higher rated opponents.

I think siouxs biggest problem is that its extremely hard to play on a no tp map, no minute men and that the concept of spawning MM/warriors as a dance is fundamentally broken as its natural to have firepit next to tc, where you would have to sacrifice vills to do the defence dance while having 10 idles in the tc. holding french's musketeer + vill + pioneers push is extremely hard, same for many colonial pushes... Also if you commit to building 3-5 teepees at home as an attack is coming, the opponent can back off and the teepee's become effectively useless.

I also think that people dont play sioux as they have the assumption that it is a nooby civ to play with the large raiding pressure it exerts and many lower people refuse to play as/against sioux when lower down on the pr scale and as a result never pick it up when they get better.

Simply put, for me they are a fun civ to play but its not competitive enough currently.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Jerom wrote:And that is not standardizing?

Even with normal bow riders, I dont think sioux plays out like a civ that masses one unit to be honest. Their semi FF is much better, the entire broken part is that they cant really semi FF without dying coz they dont have minutemen. The old solution was to play colonial and mass bow riders then, but by nerfing that and forcing sioux to do some weird cetan bow colonial thing that is super weak, the civ has been ruined.

That being said, if you can safely semi FF, like vs dutch, then sioux is a great civ I think (thats also the broken part).


An interesting point to note that ive found playing it is that you have to commit to one or the other as you will either use 700 coin to mass produce BR to survive against musket civs but then do not have the economy to manually collect the resources to age.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:
zoom wrote:
Jerom wrote:Playing as and against sioux throughout the years and observing people play as and against sioux.

That is the inspiration, I think most of the rest of the post is based on deductive logic.
I think the first paragraph of your post is perfectly agreeable, and it's important to keep in mind. While it's perfectly possible that Sioux needs buffs, however, I'm not sure that it's the case. Practically, the question is whether the civilization is now underpowered, and unfortunately its answer cannot be conclusively determined at this time.

To start off, the question if sioux is overpowered or not never seems to have been of much weight. The motivation as explained was Mart's/the belief that sioux was broken. I think, and have explained why I think so, that the changes to sioux didn't solve any issues but just made them worse. More so, I think my logic almost claims that the changes to sioux made illustrate a lack of insight when it comes to the civ and why it would be 'broken'.
No. The motivation as explained is that Sioux's strength is very uncertain, as well as highly variable. The Bow Rider was slightly nerfed while the Cetan Bow was moderately buffed. You have explained why you think so but it is not at all known whether it is the case, going by what others are saying.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

What initial assumptions are wrong then? Can you tell me how sioux would beat a musk timing push?
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by yemshi »

Not at all but they aren't designed to.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Garja »

With cetans.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by zoom »

iwillspankyou wrote:@zoom :
I think you missed an important part of my post: Sioux is a niche civilization whose strength is difficult to determine in general, and when changed in particular. In other words, buffing Sioux is risky business, and it was decided to improve the state of balance before changing Sioux without knowing its strength.


Why did the team nerf the civ?
now that you see the result: no games - do you think it was a mistake?
did you even concider making change to the civ
or do you want the civ to be " unplayed" and "forgotten"

are you happy to see Sioux not played in tournaments or in streams?
The team didn't nerf the civilization – Garja did! Sioux seeing little use is not the result of the changes made to the civilization. That is the result of the civilization itself. I personally definitely considered and am considering how Sioux should be changed. The patch is concerned with making all civilizations balanced while changing as little as possible.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:With cetans.

And then? Youre stuck in colonial with literally no chance to win the game because your colonial is garbage. Theres also the part where your opponent can scout too.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Garja »

Well you did beath musket timing, that's what you asked.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by _venox_ »

Jerom wrote:
Garja wrote:With cetans.

And then? You're stuck in colonial with literally no chance to win the game because your colonial is garbage. There's also the part where your opponent can scout too.

I tried 3v 4v 700w 4axe 700g and had around 45 military pop at minute 8 and hit fortress at minute 10 with the fast age politician. (tp + market in transition, tp and stable from 400w). The 700w can be used exactly for a warhut, 10 cetans and a firepit to spam warriors or whatever you need it for. If it can hold a well executed musk/huss timing idk. Maybe gather 50 extra wood and build a warhut instead of the second tp to be able to train 20 cetan from the 700w crates and skip the 4 axe riders since no second tp.

If this can possibly beat a musk/huss timing the fortress age up time is really good.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by yemshi »

Or send 10 pistoleros
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Garja »

Ideally what you want to do is make atleast one TP and start with war hut and add a stable from 700w (can't really spam from both early on) or even go 2x war hut. And then you must be active with units because in the long run you can't usually compete eco wise. However you can to some extent vs civs that are not colonial powerhouses. Sioux gets better colonial units than many euro civs afterall.
The next step will be to give Sioux just slightly better eco (with 5v probably) and something else, probably in the fortress age.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by gibson »

I think a slight buff to wakini rifles might help soiux a lot bc right now they're pretty shit. Something along the lines of +10 hp or plus 2 attack would be decent perhaps
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

Actually, wakina rifles are pretty cool. High attack, lower hp but they're cheaper too. I recall now that I meant to make a comparison between them and skirms.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by gibson »

Interesting, I have no idea how good they actually are, still dont because im too lazy to read your data, but just remember someone saying they were bad before.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by iNcog »

did you use matlab to compare wakinas to skirms?
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by momuuu »

iNcog wrote:did you use matlab to compare wakinas to skirms?

Wolfram mathematica, the superior brother of matlab.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Garja »

Wakina are not bad for their cost and 20 attack is actually very nice in general. The range also is partially compensated by the WC speed bonus (further upgradeable with a card). The only problem is that they don't have easily accessible upgrades which however makes sense given that they are a cav civ.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Wakina are not bad for their cost and 20 attack is actually very nice in general. The range also is partially compensated by the WC speed bonus (further upgradeable with a card). The only problem is that they don't easily accessible upgrades which however makes sense given that they are a cav civ.

Eh? Sioux isn't a cav civ...
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by _venox_ »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:Wakina are not bad for their cost and 20 attack is actually very nice in general. The range also is partially compensated by the WC speed bonus (further upgradeable with a card). The only problem is that they don't easily accessible upgrades which however makes sense given that they are a cav civ.

Eh? Sioux isn't a cav civ...

Why not? They have many different strong cavalry units and HC cav ups and not that good infantry units.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by Garja »

He is trolling
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by iNcog »

Jerom wrote:
iNcog wrote:did you use matlab to compare wakinas to skirms?

Wolfram mathematica, the superior brother of matlab.


ok that's even nerdier

congratulations!
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:Image

Looks like you used the wrong values for both units.
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Re: Do some of the recent EP changes even make sense?

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:
Garja wrote:With cetans.

And then? Youre stuck in colonial with literally no chance to win the game because your colonial is garbage. Theres also the part where your opponent can scout too.
Bow Riders with 12% less hitpoints certainly are garbage...

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