Russia on EP

Russia Tier 1?

Poll ended at 22 Sep 2016, 11:05

Yes
10
40%
No
13
52%
Still Same as on Re
2
8%
 
Total votes: 25

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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by gibson »

knusch wrote:
gibson wrote:It was smooth before too just like 5-10 secs slower, which ultimately probably slowed your age by 1-2 seconds so now we're up to a grand total of aging 6 seconds faster.


i dont get it :huh:

On a 500f 100g 100w start say you decide to go market. You have to mine 76 gold and chop 50 wood. Optimally you'd want to get that done as soon as possible bc the quicker you get hunting dogs the better. However since its only a 500f start you're gonna have to have a vil on food so you can have enough to que your second batch of vils. On re you'll have to gather 40f, on ep you only have to gather 10f, hence on ep you get hunting dogs a bit quicker, and age a little bit faster.

Garja wrote:It wasn't smooth at all. Even with 200w it wasn't worth to do it most of times.
As for TP you obviously build the house first and then chop the wood with all 5 vills and get the TP just 40 secs later. And this is possible mostly due to the vill batch costing 15f less (so 30f in total between first and second batch). Missing the route passage is absolutely irrelevant. The shorter the route the quickier you get the next passage, and the smaller is the xp bounty anyway.
All of this, plus the extra efficiency you get for the rest of the game from the snowball effect does matter quite a lot. If you can't appreciate that I can't help.
It is the same thing as giving -5f vills for any other civ. That would help a lot in any case.
Anyway, I agree it is not the only reason why Russia is very good now. Russia was already good even before this boost.
No, you get the batch of musks out, plus steel traps, plus no idle TC time. For the record in a Russian mirror, given two FBs you want to go no vill even if that speeds up unit production.

On a 600f 200w start the only difference is that you age 45 food faster on ep lol. Since you have 600f you have enough to que 2 batches of vils on both so you dont have to move any vils to food before you gather 100w anyway. So if aging 4 seconds later is what you define as not smooth at all than ye you're completely right. It would make a bigger difference on a 500f 200w start, but even on EP you'll have enough idle tc time before you age that you may as well age with 17. You can't just say missing 50xp is irrelevant either after you're making such a big deal about aging 4 seconds faster. 50 extra xp could mean you get wood trickle out 10 seconds faster. If you cant appreciate the snowball effect this has towards the rest of the game, I can't help :/

@Kaiserklein you're also talking about this snowball effect. It basically amount to approx 30 food per 50 seconds of game assuming you're in age 2 or above and producing from 1 tc. 30 food per 50 seconds = 1 cossack every 5 minutes. Now if you go age 3, start producing from 3 tc you can make the argument that the amount of food saved and the extra xp you got from having extra resources caused shipment progression to speed up and getting out refrigeration faster etc etc but that's more of a TR argument and not relevent in the majority of sup 1v1s.

Also, on the market start if its a 600f 100g 100w start the food change is irrelevant because on both patches you have enough food to que two batches of vils meaning that you can mine your 76 gold and chop your 50 wood without having to worry about gathering food. You get hunting dogs at the same time and just age slightly slower on re bc you have to gather 45 more food. Literally the only crate start where there is any difference at all is 500f 100g 100w bc on re you have to gather 40f to que your 2nd batch while on ep you only have to gather 10, so you get hunting dogs out quicker and age that much faster on ep. Probably like 6-8 seconds faster if I had to guess. This difference is actually starting to get into the realm of significance, but since it only happens on 1/6 crate starts I don't think its enough to say Russia is anything more than ever so slightly improved, although I do agree with you garja that they weren't so bad to begin with.
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by deleted_user0 »

russia is relatively better. cuz two civs that did quite well vs them are now nerfed a bit. apparantly russ musk take 1 less shot to kill an uhlan, which is pretty big. and they struggle less to keep up mass + they age a bit faster. this faster age time vs france that now struggles a bit more to age at the normal time, means a slight relative boost for russia in that mu. and on EP they already did better vs civs that beat them before like iro, india and otto, who won mostly because of the maps.

i doubt they are tier one tho, but probably did move up a tier relatively.
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by Garja »

gibson wrote:On a 600f 200w start the only difference is that you age 45 food faster on ep lol. Since you have 600f you have enough to que 2 batches of vils on both so you dont have to move any vils to food before you gather 100w anyway. So if aging 4 seconds later is what you define as not smooth at all than ye you're completely right. It would make a bigger difference on a 500f 200w start, but even on EP you'll have enough idle tc time before you age that you may as well age with 17. You can't just say missing 50xp is irrelevant either after you're making such a big deal about aging 4 seconds faster. 50 extra xp could mean you get wood trickle out 10 seconds faster. If you cant appreciate the snowball effect this has towards the rest of the game, I can't help :/

Kaiserklein you're also talking about this snowball effect. It basically amount to approx 30 food per 50 seconds of game assuming you're in age 2 or above and producing from 1 tc. 30 food per 50 seconds = 1 cossack every 5 minutes. Now if you go age 3, start producing from 3 tc you can make the argument that the amount of food saved and the extra xp you got from having extra resources caused shipment progression to speed up and getting out refrigeration faster etc etc but that's more of a TR argument and not relevent in the majority of sup 1v1s.

Also, on the market start if its a 600f 100g 100w start the food change is irrelevant because on both patches you have enough food to que two batches of vils meaning that you can mine your 76 gold and chop your 50 wood without having to worry about gathering food. You get hunting dogs at the same time and just age slightly slower on re bc you have to gather 45 more food. Literally the only crate start where there is any difference at all is 500f 100g 100w bc on re you have to gather 40f to que your 2nd batch while on ep you only have to gather 10, so you get hunting dogs out quicker and age that much faster on ep. Probably like 6-8 seconds faster if I had to guess. This difference is actually starting to get into the realm of significance, but since it only happens on 1/6 crate starts I don't think its enough to say Russia is anything more than ever so slightly improved, although I do agree with you garja that they weren't so bad to begin with.


4 seconds are relevant given that all the other conditions are the same. It is just a net benefit.
And that's just for age1. Then you have lot of facilitations for the rest of the game, notably the fact that early on you can have units+vills+steel traps with basically no idle. Previously it was only possible with a great start.

Missing a TP passage is irrelevant because on RE you can't TP at all with 14v. So there is not comparison where you can say you miss 50xp. Any TP in age1 is a disruptive improvement. With 600f 200w start and 60f treasure you age at 3.11 as you can see here . I don't think you can risk that on RE, since no useful treasure would mean a 3.20 or more age up, which is beyond the usual acceptable aging time for euro civs (4.45).

Market start means 500f + extra crate, so 1/3 of times (0.5*0.66) you get a significant improvement over the previous patch.
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by n0el »

Basically 45 food is too much.
mad cuz bad
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by sirmusket »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:Wow! You beat a captain?!

russia tier 1 confirmed good unit.

1v1?
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by Kaiserklein »

gibson wrote:@Kaiserklein you're also talking about this snowball effect. It basically amount to approx 30 food per 50 seconds of game assuming you're in age 2 or above and producing from 1 tc. 30 food per 50 seconds = 1 cossack every 5 minutes. Now if you go age 3, start producing from 3 tc you can make the argument that the amount of food saved and the extra xp you got from having extra resources caused shipment progression to speed up and getting out refrigeration faster etc etc but that's more of a TR argument and not relevent in the majority of sup 1v1s.

I was just saying that instead of the 15f people talk about it's more like 30f when you take idle time before age up into account. But now you also have to consider there ofc are other advantages. Aging up earlier means you get cossacks faster so you can pressure faster. It means you get market upgrades, a TP earlier. It means you'll have to cut slightly less vils if you want to prod army. Etc. In the end it's a pretty significant boost. That and the fact that russia was probs a bit underrated on last patch makes russia pretty strong in the end.

gibson wrote:Also, on the market start if its a 600f 100g 100w start the food change is irrelevant because on both patches you have enough food to que two batches of vils meaning that you can mine your 76 gold and chop your 50 wood without having to worry about gathering food. You get hunting dogs at the same time and just age slightly slower on re bc you have to gather 45 more food. Literally the only crate start where there is any difference at all is 500f 100g 100w bc on re you have to gather 40f to que your 2nd batch while on ep you only have to gather 10, so you get hunting dogs out quicker and age that much faster on ep. Probably like 6-8 seconds faster if I had to guess. This difference is actually starting to get into the realm of significance, but since it only happens on 1/6 crate starts I don't think its enough to say Russia is anything more than ever so slightly improved, although I do agree with you garja that they weren't so bad to begin with.

It does change something on 600f 100g 100w start. The extra 45f may be enough to make you want to get hunt dogs, because you know you'll have less idle time. On last patch, you didn't get hunt dogs anyway because you knew you would have too much idle time.
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by sirmusket »

Kaiserklein wrote:
gibson wrote:@Kaiserklein you're also talking about this snowball effect. It basically amount to approx 30 food per 50 seconds of game assuming you're in age 2 or above and producing from 1 tc. 30 food per 50 seconds = 1 cossack every 5 minutes. Now if you go age 3, start producing from 3 tc you can make the argument that the amount of food saved and the extra xp you got from having extra resources caused shipment progression to speed up and getting out refrigeration faster etc etc but that's more of a TR argument and not relevent in the majority of sup 1v1s.

I was just saying that instead of the 15f people talk about it's more like 30f when you take idle time before age up into account. But now you also have to consider there ofc are other advantages. Aging up earlier means you get cossacks faster so you can pressure faster. It means you get market upgrades, a TP earlier. It means you'll have to cut slightly less vils if you want to prod army. Etc. In the end it's a pretty significant boost. That and the fact that russia was probs a bit underrated on last patch makes russia pretty strong in the end.

gibson wrote:Also, on the market start if its a 600f 100g 100w start the food change is irrelevant because on both patches you have enough food to que two batches of vils meaning that you can mine your 76 gold and chop your 50 wood without having to worry about gathering food. You get hunting dogs at the same time and just age slightly slower on re bc you have to gather 45 more food. Literally the only crate start where there is any difference at all is 500f 100g 100w bc on re you have to gather 40f to que your 2nd batch while on ep you only have to gather 10, so you get hunting dogs out quicker and age that much faster on ep. Probably like 6-8 seconds faster if I had to guess. This difference is actually starting to get into the realm of significance, but since it only happens on 1/6 crate starts I don't think its enough to say Russia is anything more than ever so slightly improved, although I do agree with you garja that they weren't so bad to begin with.

Yeah I defs agree here, also now you get no idle time in tc while still getting 2 batches of musk is pre decent start, and like you said TP, and market is much easier now, with 5 cossacks also coming earlier. It's not just 15 f tbh, it accumulates and helps in end.
It does change something on 600f 100g 100w start. The extra 45f may be enough to make you want to get hunt dogs, because you know you'll have less idle time. On last patch, you didn't get hunt dogs anyway because you knew you would have too much idle time.
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by _H2O »

n0eL wrote:Basically 45 food is too much.
meaning the game is balanced
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by HeatitUP_ »

You shouldn't lose with Russia
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by momuuu »

I agree 100% with gibson and umeu. Its so small, people are just saying what others thinking without realistically assesing the change.
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by sirmusket »

Jerom wrote:I agree 100% with gibson and umeu. Its so small, people are just saying what others thinking without realistically assesing the change.

I agree with them too, but I still think Russia has chanced, they aren't the same as on re, but tbh these vills need to even cheaper, or just make musk's like regular musk? with maybe like a bit more coin cost eg 98 coin
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by gh0st »

sirmusket wrote:
Jerom wrote:I agree 100% with gibson and umeu. Its so small, people are just saying what others thinking without realistically assesing the change.

I agree with them too, but I still think Russia has chanced, they aren't the same as on re, but tbh these vills need to even cheaper, or just make musk's like regular musk? with maybe like a bit more coin cost eg 98 coin

:huh: :huh: :hmm: :hmm:
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Re: Russia on EP

Post by sirmusket »

gh0st wrote:
sirmusket wrote:
Jerom wrote:I agree 100% with gibson and umeu. Its so small, people are just saying what others thinking without realistically assesing the change.

I agree with them too, but I still think Russia has chanced, they aren't the same as on re, but tbh these vills need to even cheaper, or just make musk's like regular musk? with maybe like a bit more coin cost eg 98 coin

:huh: :huh: :hmm: :hmm:

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hehe: :hehe: :hehe:

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