Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Netherlands Denalin
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Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by Denalin »

Moved from Bug Fixes for Fan Patch post:

What, if any, has been the discussion around putting gates over trade routes? It exists in the campaign, and since day one I've always felt this was a clear oversight of the game's design, particularly on maps where the trade route is close to TC. My assumption was always that it was too difficult to implement by the game's deadline and they just never did it. Anyone have a valid argument against this?

Clearly, addressing this would affect the game's meta in some way, but make for a much better experience overall.
I know there are some mods that address this; to me the best option from a playability perspective would be to only allow long walls to be placed in a mostly perpendicular fashion over the trade route, and having any wall placed over a trade route automatically change to a gate and factor in the additional cost.

I prefer EP over basically any other mod because it's simple and clean. It fixes what should clearly have been fixed without interfering with core game mechanics. I'm not looking for new civs, units, etc. just balance and fixes that ES surely would have made if they had better backing from Microsoft. At that, I'll admit that unit fixes are clearly easier to justify than this, since there is still a chance that the designers fully intended for walls to not be able to cross trade routes.

Thoughts?
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by forgrin »

It's an interesting concept for sure. Would probably be more applicable to the Treaty patch overall since walls are so uncommon in Sup. This wouldn't be an issue on most EP maps since mapmakers have generally veered away from in-base TPs like the ones on Great Plains.
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Definitely agree. This bugged me so much when I was a sergeant playing FFA on great plains. (along with not being able to build the cool fort walls from the campaign.
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Denalin wrote:only allow long walls to be placed in a mostly perpendicular fashion over the trade route

Back in the day I was running mods which allowed the long wall segments to be placed over the trade route. There is a catch though, the way I saw it implemented is that the long segments can be placed over absolutely anything, which caused some buggyness; for example walls could be running through a building. Not sure if that can be fixed, maybe it can.

Denalin wrote:having any wall placed over a trade route automatically change to a gate and factor in the additional cost

This, while a cool concept, sounds like something that would be very hard or impossible for us to implement without access to the engine source code. The alternative solution I've used myself is to make the travois/stagecoach/train deal damage, which I still think is a pretty cool concept as well. The way it can work is that gate-less wall segments along with any unit crossing the route are damaged by the passing travois/stagecoach/train. The damage can also be different as in train>stagecoach>travois.

Denalin wrote:Clearly, addressing this would affect the game's meta in some way, but make for a much better experience overall.

Yeah, I'm afraid some will consider this too big of a change. This is basically a buff to turtling and "wall laming", which is already not well-received by the community in general. Perhaps we could run a poll on whether people would like to see this, but some more research on the implementation part should be done as well.
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Netherlands Denalin
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by Denalin »

Today I started having a Twitter discussion with the lead designer from AoE3 about this. He got right back to me! He originally said he didn't think they included gates over trade routes because it looked silly, but once I showed him the campaign level with the trade route passing through the fort, he seemed to remember a bit more sort of conceded that it may have been because it was hard to implement. I'll continue the discussion with him tomorrow and see if I can reach out to any other designers.

EAGLEMUT wrote:The alternative solution I've used myself is to make the travois/stagecoach/train deal damage, which I still think is a pretty cool concept as well. The way it can work is that gate-less wall segments along with any unit crossing the route are damaged by the passing travois/stagecoach/train. The damage can also be different as in train>stagecoach>travois.


Command and Conquer: Generals actually had a mechanic exactly like this! Haha, except their trains were invulnerable and would fully obliterate anything they came into contact with if I recall.

Check this vid to see it in action, lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOJMrDQulU0
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Poland pecelot
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by pecelot »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:(along with not being able to build the cool fort walls from the campaign.

The Improved Mod attempted to implement such a feature, but apparently people had problems with using it properly (inner side of the walls placed inside of the walled base). :sad:
EAGLEMUT wrote:There is a catch though, the way I saw it implemented is that the long segments can be placed over absolutely anything, which caused some buggyness; for example walls could be running through a building. Not sure if that can be fixed, maybe it can.

That's not terrible, right? In case of larger building workers need to reach their construction place, which should not be always possible (there should be some holes left). The only building I see walled is a house, as it has relatively few HP, although on EP it's not that much of a threat... :oops:
EAGLEMUT wrote:The alternative solution I've used myself is to make the travois/stagecoach/train deal damage, which I still think is a pretty cool concept as well. The way it can work is that gate-less wall segments along with any unit crossing the route are damaged by the passing travois/stagecoach/train. The damage can also be different as in train>stagecoach>travois.

Not really, unless you're talking about buildings. Units just randomly walk across trade routes too often for this to implement. If it was possible to give them only siege damage, it would be indeed kewl. :chinese:
EAGLEMUT wrote:
Denalin wrote:Clearly, addressing this would affect the game's meta in some way, but make for a much better experience overall.

Yeah, I'm afraid some will consider this too big of a change. This is basically a buff to turtling and "wall laming", which is already not well-received by the community in general. Perhaps we could run a poll on whether people would like to see this, but some more research on the implementation part should be done as well.

Indeed, I expressed my doubts in the previous thread. A general ideology of EP is to change as little as possible to balance things up, not to make as many things viable as possible. I recall the opposite was being mentioned in earlier stages of EP development, but I've encountered many claims in which Patch Team said they were not interested in that kind of modding. The only change of such a kind I'm concerned about (apart from fixing bugs) is changing the Unction card for the Spanish, which objectively wasn't really necessary in terms of balance, especially given their recent buffs.
I'm afraid a poll wouldn't be useful either, as populus argument doesn't really convince the team, which has both positive and negative sides. I'd expect people's choice to be slightly in favour of the change, but again — it's pretty significant in terms of high-level gameplay and — as you said — the team doesn't promote defensive play (rotator mod... :mad: :mad: :mad: ). Think of maps like Florida or even the basic Great Plains — it would definitely be game-changing in many aspects.
Nevertheless, I'd like to once again express my full support for this idea! :kinggreen:
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by gibson »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
Denalin wrote:only allow long walls to be placed in a mostly perpendicular fashion over the trade route

Back in the day I was running mods which allowed the long wall segments to be placed over the trade route. There is a catch though, the way I saw it implemented is that the long segments can be placed over absolutely anything, which caused some buggyness; for example walls could be running through a building. Not sure if that can be fixed, maybe it can.

Denalin wrote:having any wall placed over a trade route automatically change to a gate and factor in the additional cost

This, while a cool concept, sounds like something that would be very hard or impossible for us to implement without access to the engine source code. The alternative solution I've used myself is to make the travois/stagecoach/train deal damage, which I still think is a pretty cool concept as well. The way it can work is that gate-less wall segments along with any unit crossing the route are damaged by the passing travois/stagecoach/train. The damage can also be different as in train>stagecoach>travois.

Denalin wrote:Clearly, addressing this would affect the game's meta in some way, but make for a much better experience overall.

Yeah, I'm afraid some will consider this too big of a change. This is basically a buff to turtling and "wall laming", which is already not well-received by the community in general. Perhaps we could run a poll on whether people would like to see this, but some more research on the implementation part should be done as well.
hey just noticed your signature and wanted to let you know that when I said that I meant that I was surprised by your improvement rather then questioning your rank xD
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by EAGLEMUT »

pecelot wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:The alternative solution I've used myself is to make the travois/stagecoach/train deal damage, which I still think is a pretty cool concept as well. The way it can work is that gate-less wall segments along with any unit crossing the route are damaged by the passing travois/stagecoach/train. The damage can also be different as in train>stagecoach>travois.

Not really, unless you're talking about buildings. Units just randomly walk across trade routes too often for this to implement. If it was possible to give them only siege damage, it would be indeed kewl. :chinese:

That's the point! Don't you think it would be cool, logical and funny to see a passing train wipe out an army of Skirmishers and send them flying in all directions?! :lol:
I suppose giving the damage a 0x multiplier or something is possible, but where's the fun in that? :sad:

gibson wrote:hey just noticed your signature and wanted to let you know that when I said that I meant that I was surprised by your improvement rather then questioning your rank xD

Ah, I wasn't entirely sure about that, just found it funny xD
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by pecelot »

It wouldn't be funny if your army was completely demolished xD People just don't pay attention to that, it would be too game-changing and random for somewhat competitive scene, but of course realistic.
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Well, they would have to start paying attention. Train rush meta confirmed! #trush
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by pecelot »

Ive just lost to a giant trash-travois :mad:
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by zoom »

Water and trade routes are made preminent in this game cause [sic] they were important historically – it's just how the game is meant to work.
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by EAGLEMUT »

zoom wrote:Water and trade routes are made preminent in this game cause [sic] they were important historically – it's just how the game is meant to work.


I'm not sure how that relates to building walls over them? :hmm:
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Great Britain Panmaster
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Re: Walls (Gates) Over Trade Routes

Post by Panmaster »

Surely making the straight sections ignore obstructions while the columns remain unchanged would do the trick?

Also don't forget to enable cWallGate for the AI so it can build gates for all civs.
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