ESOC Patch is unbalanced

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No Flag r4go
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by r4go »

Darwin_ wrote:
gibson wrote:
Rikikipu wrote:It's easy to complain but you don't give any solutions to improve the EP balance. Tbh team games aren't worse than Re team games. Also 2v2 or 3v3 are different gamestyle.

3v3 EP is worse then 3v3 re if youre just taking into account the civs and not the maps, anti cheat etc.

3v3 balance is probably the same, maybe a little less just because of Ports and Dutch, and 2v2 balance is just shit. Russia is so damn good and German, one of the more balanced 2v2 civs on RE, is now really weak.

German is balanced in 2-2??how?? I always suppose german was really too strong in 2-2, expecially if you fast rush and costant raid. At start you out mass all the civs who are used to make huss. Some combo civs are too op if they are whit german india german, azzy german, russia german, frenc german ect ect. Why do you think it is balance?? I really suppose in 2-2 german is whit otto the best civ. (Even if you don't play games like tr10). Tell me your idea pls. I'm interest on listening it.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Darwin_ »

r4go wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
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3v3 balance is probably the same, maybe a little less just because of Ports and Dutch, and 2v2 balance is just shit. Russia is so damn good and German, one of the more balanced 2v2 civs on RE, is now really weak.

German is balanced in 2-2??how?? I always suppose german was really too strong in 2-2, expecially if you fast rush and costant raid. At start you out mass all the civs who are used to make huss. Some combo civs are too op if they are whit german india german, azzy german, russia german, frenc german ect ect. Why do you think it is balance?? I really suppose in 2-2 german is whit otto the best civ. (Even if you don't play games like tr10). Tell me your idea pls. I'm interest on listening it.

German can only go cav in 2-2, and forcing them to go bow/pike is great for you.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Kaiserklein »

Honestly I think ports are really strong in every stage of the game. Even early on it's not really slow, actually pretty fast since you can age at 4:10 and get 5 huss quite early with 700g. I can't really think of a civ that could rush ports. And later on, we ofc know ports are really good. So they're kinda OP. They don't have blatant weaknesses but they have a lot of advantages.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by gibson »

Yea I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to mart when you say port can't keep up with military early..... They can either send crates and keep up that way or just send straight up military shipments without sacrificing eco
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by deleted_user »

gibson wrote:Yea I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to mart when you say port can't keep up with military early..... They can either send crates and keep up that way or just send straight up military shipments without sacrificing eco


Add CM to that as well. Ports seem quite strong. I would not be opposed to a simple change like 90f villa instead of 80 and play test that.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by fei123456 »

the problem is how to make more players play FP.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Jaeger »

So in age 2 you are gaining 40f/25 seconds, which is around 1.5 extra vills. In age 3 it's about 2.25 extra vills. But port starts wiith 7 vills, so they really have 2.5 and 3.25 vill advantage than other civs, respectively.

Anyway, I'm glad @Goodspeed thinks Brit is the top civ, I have always thought so too <3 but everybody else too nub
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Gendarme »

ovi12 wrote:So in age 2 you are gaining 40f/25 seconds, which is around 1.5 extra vills. In age 3 it's about 2.25 extra vills. But port starts wiith 7 vills, so they really have 2.5 and 3.25 vill advantage than other civs, respectively.

This would be true if they did not get additional town centers. Their advantages goes beyond this. However, the main point is that they have got a 1.5/2.25 settler buff in this patch.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Jaeger »

Gendarme wrote:
ovi12 wrote:So in age 2 you are gaining 40f/25 seconds, which is around 1.5 extra vills. In age 3 it's about 2.25 extra vills. But port starts wiith 7 vills, so they really have 2.5 and 3.25 vill advantage than other civs, respectively.

This would be true if they did not get additional town centers. Their advantages goes beyond this. However, the main point is that they have got a 1.5/2.25 settler buff in this patch.

what?

I didn't say this is their only advantage
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by deleted_user0 »

since im out anyway, i can freely share my thoughts about the current civ balance.

brits are quite obvious tier one civ on this patch, mainly because they do so well vs the other high ranking civs, though they seem to freakishly lose out to some of the lower ranking, more agressive civs which they have a harder time competing with because of a lack of a good (semi) ff. Not sure who they share first place with, probably dutch spain and possibly japan. ger and fre seem to have fallen a tier, fre certainly, germany remains to be seen to be honest. could also be that people figured out that the way to beat uhlan skir is going cav goon, and with uhlans being nerfed, germany really doesnt have any alternatives.

china has fallen a tier for sure as well. russia and dutch gained a tier, dutch perhaps even 2. whether dutch is tier one or ports is, depends on how well both civs do vs spain and who wins dutch vs ports. since it seems that dutch vs ports is kinda 50/50, but dutch loses hard to spain while ports doesnt, not so hard atleast, the dutch dont get tier 1 status. they also seem to be struggling vs the new russia, so both seem firmly high middle tier atm. joined with aztecs

india seems this weird civ atm, totally shit vs most semi ff civs, but they do still seem to have the number on brits (though i still think its mostly due to brit players playing the mu wrong). therefore they are a bit hard to rank, im inclined to put them bottom tier, but they are winning their tournament games so ill put them in between 2 and 3 atm because theyre not as shit as sioux and iro. that being said, iro still beats india, so you see my predicament.

so it probably goes like

1. brits
1. spain
1. ports
1/2 japan
1/2 germany
1/2 dutch
2 russia
2 aztecs
2 france
2 otto
2 china
2/ 3 india
3 sioux
3 iro
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Jaeger »

umeu wrote:since im out anyway, i can freely share my thoughts about the current civ balance.

brits are quite obvious tier one civ on this patch. not sure who they share first place with, probably dutch spain and possibly japan. ger and fre seem to have fallen a tier, fre certainly, germany remains to be seen to be honest. could also be that people figured out that the way to beat uhlan skir is going cav goon, and with uhlans being nerfed, germany really doesnt have any alternatives.

china has fallen a tier for sure as well. russia and dutch gained a tier, dutch perhaps even 2. whether dutch is tier one or ports is, depends on how well both civs do vs spain and who wins dutch vs ports. since it seems that dutch vs ports is kinda 50/50, but dutch loses hard to spain while ports doesnt, not so hard atleast, the dutch dont get tier 1 status. they also seem to be struggling vs the new russia, so both seem firmly high middle tier atm. joined with aztecs

india seems this weird civ atm, totally shit vs most semi ff civs, but they do still seem to have the number on brits (though i still think its mostly due to brit players playing the mu wrong). therefore they are a bit hard to rank, im inclined to put them bottom tier, but they are winning their tournament games so ill put them in between 2 and 3 atm because theyre not as shit as sioux and iro. that being said, iro still beats india, so you see my predicament.

so it probably goes like

1. brits
1. spain
1. ports
1/2 japan
1/2 germany
1/2 dutch
2 russia
2 aztecs
2 france
2 otto
2 china
2/ 3 india
3 sioux
3 iro


Balance seems pretty good then. I'd be really depressed tho if people only figured out that cav goon beats uhlan skirm. Like wtf, that has been the most obvious thing ever for years but no one has done it
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by forgrin »

@umeu wait, Iro beats India on EP? Please tell how.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Gendarme »

I'm guessing if you make forward Agra, you still can't harass Iroquois well enough, but you're forced to stay colonial nonetheless, because you need to defend the Agra - and Iroquois economy will probably give them the edge. So you gotta go defensive Agra and go for a strong colonial mass and push when Iroquois hits fortress (they probably have to go fortress, because gurkhas outrange aennas, but maybe I'm wrong) - but Indian economy is pretty slow, and your mass is probably not that huge at the time Iroquois hits fortress. Third option is that you both semi FF, but the better economy of Iroquois will probably prevail here.

Anyways, I'm PR 10 so don't take me too seriously. I just like to join discussions.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by deleted_user0 »

ovi12 wrote:
umeu wrote:since im out anyway, i can freely share my thoughts about the current civ balance.

brits are quite obvious tier one civ on this patch. not sure who they share first place with, probably dutch spain and possibly japan. ger and fre seem to have fallen a tier, fre certainly, germany remains to be seen to be honest. could also be that people figured out that the way to beat uhlan skir is going cav goon, and with uhlans being nerfed, germany really doesnt have any alternatives.

china has fallen a tier for sure as well. russia and dutch gained a tier, dutch perhaps even 2. whether dutch is tier one or ports is, depends on how well both civs do vs spain and who wins dutch vs ports. since it seems that dutch vs ports is kinda 50/50, but dutch loses hard to spain while ports doesnt, not so hard atleast, the dutch dont get tier 1 status. they also seem to be struggling vs the new russia, so both seem firmly high middle tier atm. joined with aztecs

india seems this weird civ atm, totally shit vs most semi ff civs, but they do still seem to have the number on brits (though i still think its mostly due to brit players playing the mu wrong). therefore they are a bit hard to rank, im inclined to put them bottom tier, but they are winning their tournament games so ill put them in between 2 and 3 atm because theyre not as shit as sioux and iro. that being said, iro still beats india, so you see my predicament.

so it probably goes like

1. brits
1. spain
1. ports
1/2 japan
1/2 germany
1/2 dutch
2 russia
2 aztecs
2 france
2 otto
2 china
2/ 3 india
3 sioux
3 iro


Balance seems pretty good then. I'd be really depressed tho if people only figured out that cav goon beats uhlan skirm. Like wtf, that has been the most obvious thing ever for years but no one has done it


well yes it was obvious but not all civs were capable of doing it fast enough, now the civs that can do this combo, dutch, spain and ports have all been buffed on the EP and therefor the combo that was lacking something, be it speed or mass on RE, now comes together on EP.

Also balance isn't that much different tbh, but ye it has improved. It's mainly that the list of top civs has expanded, whereas on re playing on the standard tp land maps the tier would be

1. iro
1. otto
2. germany
2. japan
2. china
2. france
2. aztecs
2. brits
3. india
3. ports
3. spain
3. russia
3. sioux
3/4 dutch

so i'd say on EP the pool of dominating civs is less clearly defined and not as small as on RE. However, while the pool of underwhelming civs on EP is smaller than on RE, they are really in a quite sorry state at the moment. and due to the fact that there are less civs in their own tier to compete with, they are really a bit obsolete at the moment.

iro only really does well vs sioux and india atm, doing decently vs france and china as well. sioux wins one or two mus fairly easy, and loses the others very hard. theyre problably the worst civ atm. and there probably hasnt been a civ so lowly ranked as them in quite some time.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by forgrin »

Gendarme wrote:I'm guessing if you make forward Agra, you still can't harass Iroquois well enough, but you're forced to stay colonial nonetheless, because you need to defend the Agra - and Iroquois economy will probably give them the edge. So you gotta go defensive Agra and go for a strong colonial mass and push when Iroquois hits fortress (they probably have to go fortress, because gurkhas outrange aennas, but maybe I'm wrong) - but Indian economy is pretty slow, and your mass is probably not that huge at the time Iroquois hits fortress. Third option is that you both semi FF, but the better economy of Iroquois will probably prevail here.

Anyways, I'm PR 10 so don't take me too seriously. I just like to join discussions.


Ok I see how hitting fortress is pretty good for Iro, but the problem I see is that EP iro's eco is actually trash... I don't understand why people think that it's good.
They don't have any bonuses other than the ageup travois, which is about 500w a game tops;

they start with 5v and bad crates(std crates > Iro crate + travois 99â„… of games because of early TP or market options);
they have crap market ups;
they have wise woman which is generally worse than 400w;
their cav costs wood;
their fortress army is really gold heavy...
It's beyond shit.

Oh, and also they don't get any usable siege units in fortress, and adding cav is super awkward because wood cost (not to mention they're not that good either). So you're stuck with a civ with horrible eco and expensive units only avaliable in fortress, and with their colonial play hamstrung by the lack of a TP.

WP patch team, WP.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by r4go »

Darwin_ wrote:
r4go wrote:
Show hidden quotes

German is balanced in 2-2??how?? I always suppose german was really too strong in 2-2, expecially if you fast rush and costant raid. At start you out mass all the civs who are used to make huss. Some combo civs are too op if they are whit german india german, azzy german, russia german, frenc german ect ect. Why do you think it is balance?? I really suppose in 2-2 german is whit otto the best civ. (Even if you don't play games like tr10). Tell me your idea pls. I'm interest on listening it.

German can only go cav in 2-2, and forcing them to go bow/pike is great for you.

How u can fource german going bow?? Need some example :love: :love: :love:
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Gendarme »

@forgrin The point is that their eco is better than India's - at least early, because of villager shipments. India probably can't afford to go Karni Mata + Otto consulate because of the possibility that Iro stays colonial and reks.

Anyways, I think Iroquois will be nice with 100w in starting crates. You will have the option to either chop 100w for a TP, and build the longhouse with the starting travois, or chop 25w for the longhouse, and save the travois for a corral in Colonial Age. Ugh, trading posts are so OP.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by DaRkNiTe1698 »

Gendarme wrote:I'm guessing if you make forward Agra, you still can't harass Iroquois well enough, but you're forced to stay colonial nonetheless, because you need to defend the Agra - and Iroquois economy will probably give them the edge. So you gotta go defensive Agra and go for a strong colonial mass and push when Iroquois hits fortress (they probably have to go fortress, because gurkhas outrange aennas, but maybe I'm wrong) - but Indian economy is pretty slow, and your mass is probably not that huge at the time Iroquois hits fortress. Third option is that you both semi FF, but the better economy of Iroquois will probably prevail here.

Anyways, I'm PR 10 so don't take me too seriously. I just like to join discussions.
PR means nothing. If you use the brain, your opinions could be right, of course you need some experience to make sensible reasonings, but if you rely on PR, then the patch wouldn't be defective at all, because some Top players are involved on the team.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:This patch has more evident outliers than previous one or atleast same as old one but inflicted by the patch team itself. I believe the next patch update will be more thoughtful and will try to fix the mistakes.
That's interesting, considering the team's assessment of civilizations' strength. How do you figure?
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Darwin_ »

r4go wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
Show hidden quotes

German can only go cav in 2-2, and forcing them to go bow/pike is great for you.

How u can fource german going bow?? Need some example :love: :love: :love:

If say you're french/brits vs. french/german, you can double musk rush and force them to bow, and then ship 3 huss or add a stable.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:This patch has more evident outliers than previous one or atleast same as old one but inflicted by the patch team itself. I believe the next patch update will be more thoughtful and will try to fix the mistakes.
That's interesting, considering the team's assessment of civilizations' strength. How do you figure?

knowing garja he's just using some ridiculous definition of "outliers" which probably doesn't actually imply that these "outliers" have a significantly better winrate but rather that they are better than others based on an arbitrary set of conditions.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Darwin_ »

Jerom wrote:
zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:This patch has more evident outliers than previous one or atleast same as old one but inflicted by the patch team itself. I believe the next patch update will be more thoughtful and will try to fix the mistakes.
That's interesting, considering the team's assessment of civilizations' strength. How do you figure?

knowing garja he's just using some ridiculous definition of "outliers" which probably doesn't actually imply that these "outliers" have a significantly better winrate but rather that they are better than others based on an arbitrary set of conditions.

I mean, in terms of what you feel in games, brits, ports and dutch feel like outliers on the much higher end, and sioux and iro are very much lower-end outliers. The data gathered thus far is innacurate I think, just because the map pool from 128/64 was very unique and the skill difference between players was far greater than it is now. I would very much like to see data from the Ro16 onwards, once skill stops to be a major factor.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:
zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:This patch has more evident outliers than previous one or atleast same as old one but inflicted by the patch team itself. I believe the next patch update will be more thoughtful and will try to fix the mistakes.
That's interesting, considering the team's assessment of civilizations' strength. How do you figure?

knowing garja he's just using some ridiculous definition of "outliers" which probably doesn't actually imply that these "outliers" have a significantly better winrate but rather that they are better than others based on an arbitrary set of conditions.
Well, first and foremost it's interesting to know whether he thinks EP2.0 has more distinctive or more numerous outliers – or both – than 1.2.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:Your math is way off.
It's likely the case that the seven starting Settlers were included in the number trained in the Discovery Age – similarly to how the cost of (higher) Settler production, and the respective Crate, Dragoon & Genitours nerfs are often excluded from Portuguese balance discussion(s).
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by momuuu »

Darwin_ wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Show hidden quotes

knowing garja he's just using some ridiculous definition of "outliers" which probably doesn't actually imply that these "outliers" have a significantly better winrate but rather that they are better than others based on an arbitrary set of conditions.

I mean, in terms of what you feel in games, brits, ports and dutch feel like outliers on the much higher end, and sioux and iro are very much lower-end outliers. The data gathered thus far is innacurate I think, just because the map pool from 128/64 was very unique and the skill difference between players was far greater than it is now. I would very much like to see data from the Ro16 onwards, once skill stops to be a major factor.

I dont actually get how people think dutch is supposed to be OP. Do you guys even play the game?

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