ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

[Goodspeed]

I'm confused. Is everyone asking to revert Iro to RE trolling or have you all gone crazy?

[zoom]

I agree as well; let's revert Iroquois. Fuck Goodspeed.

[gibson]

revert iro except make the trevious they get in age 2 a discovery trevious

[zoom]

Zzz see I'm not agressive and you just flame for free and then you complain. Makes no sense.

Well, he just questioned your opinion, on this occasion. Is he being aggressive, or are you being defensive?

[deleted_user0]

nah imo don't touch iro units. They were never too strong to begin with. In fact, kanya and tomahawks are rather underwhelming. FP and MR are strong, but they need that cuz they don't have a good late game eco, so they need good units.

[deleted_user0]

have you not read the posts? Revert is the best way to judge where they stand now and what's needed to properly balance them. Otherwise you are going to get other changes to fix past changes that are no longer necessary to begin with.

I already said RE iro will most likely be too strong still, BUT with maps and other civs buffed, won't be as strong as before imo. So they may require only a very specific targeted nerf.

[lemmings121]

is it possible for the ep to change apearence of units somehow? toma+aena in a mass are just impossible do diferentiate mid game to properly micro against x.x

[Garja]

Nah all iro units range from good to amazing. But that's how TWC are designed, they have shit eco and op units. Let's revert Iro for the lolz.

[Goodspeed]

have you not read the posts? Revert is the best way to judge where they stand now and what's needed to properly balance them. Otherwise you are going to get other changes to fix past changes that are no longer necessary to begin with.

I've read the posts and don't agree. Revert is not the best way to judge where they stand now, because it simply would make them win every match up handily. Iro received big nerfs for a reason, I don't think making them top civ is the answer. Rather we should find a change that puts them slightly above average.

[deleted_user0]

ye they received nerf cuz most ppl dunno how to play + re maps were shit. Now, with better maps, other civs being buffed, RE iro is not near as scary as it was before. It will still be pretty scary, but imo you can better balance from that than from this dungciv that you made it to be.

[momuuu]

I mean, as long as it stays unplayable nobody plays it and you keep saying you don't know how to buff.. At this point this slow approach just isn't working anymore, iro has been perceived as really shitty for a year now and we still don't know how shitty it is exactly because literally nobody wants to bother playing a shitty civ anymore.

[Diarouga]

ye they received nerf cuz most ppl dunno how to play + re maps were shit. Now, with better maps, other civs being buffed, RE iro is not near as scary as it was before. It will still be pretty scary, but imo you can better balance from that than from this dungciv that you made it to be.

They aren't fine at all lol, they can take the TPs from free and keep the map forever, or even just ff. Seriously if you revert iro's nerfs they'll be the top civ.

[Dsy]

Basicly they got two nerfs if i know good: they cant tp start + aenna cost more. Or more?

[Diarouga]

True, iro is shit right now, seriously when I play it I lose to pr30 guys. They have some potential with their ff builds, because the iro ff is still scary but it can't beat rushes.
Atm there is absolutely nothing you can do vs an indian/port 10/10, a spain ff and all the other shits.

[Garja]

Aenna cost is already reverted. Right now the difference between RE and EP is -200w +100f. We can start reverting +100w -100f. If that's not enough we restore to RE level with another +100w. Also just +100w might be ok (a net nerf of -50w basically).

Vs India 10/10 you just play colo and time the agra. It is actually pretty straightforward. Vs aggressive slow agra it is harder.
There are tons of good Iro builds right now.
600w 5v 600g with 5-10 kanya semi.
600w 5v 6 toma 4 kanya etc. for toma/kanya timing.
5v 600g for 5 toma semi (or straight ff).
Also you can fast age with farm in age1 (sometimes) and send 5+4v with 2nd food and wood ups which is good vs colo civs.
You can literally do w/e. It is just that their starting conditions are not amazing anymore and TWC civs are supposed to have that because of only 5 starting vills.

[Dsy]

And it lost all of its rush potential cause of 1 early tp?
Plus they age faster then...

[Diarouga]

Revert iro is fine. One of the reasons they are broken on re is because of maps having no safe resources. They are like opposite of ports. RE port on ESOC maps are strong. RE port on RE map are shit.

No, iro ff is broken as well.

[Goodspeed]

I mean, as long as it stays unplayable nobody plays it and you keep saying you don't know how to buff.. At this point this slow approach just isn't working anymore

It is working. What wouldn't work is trying to balance everything at once, especially with the amount of play testing being done. I'm sure you know we don't intend to keep Iro and Sioux on a level where they are unplayable. As I mentioned earlier, the previous iterations our focus was simply elsewhere.

I agree with the sentiment of making Iro and Sioux strong, creating incentive to play them. I don't agree with reverting all Iro nerfs knowing it will just make them top civ again.

Some of you may have forgotten just how broken Iro is on RE. It's not just the maps, not even close. In the PK tournament, played mostly on the Great plains we all love to hate due to its insane amount of hunts, Iro was still by far the top civ.

[momuuu]

Its just not working. At this point two civs have basically been unplayable for a year. Like iro and sioux don't seem playable, they dont even seem close to fine. It just seems like giving yourself a handicap.

[Goodspeed]

And what makes you think we don't intend to fix these civs?

[momuuu]

Well you keep saying you don't want to change things because you don't know where the civs stand, which means they'll never really end up fixed unless you abandon that way of thinking. It's just so much quicker when you step of this ridiculously slow philosophy and actually start doing somewhat more aggressive balancing when there's actually the opportunity to do so. The only time you was "tricked" into making a pretty aggressive balance change you completely fixed a civ.

[Diarouga]

Well you keep saying you don't want to change things because you don't know where the civs stand, which means they'll never really end up fixed unless you abandon that way of thinking. It's just so much quicker when you step of this ridiculously slow philosophy and actually start doing somewhat more aggressive balancing when there's actually the opportunity to do so. The only time you was "tricked" into making a pretty aggressive balance change you completely fixed a civ.

There are tons of good Iro builds right now.

They're fine, that's why the EP team doesn't buff them.

[Goodspeed]

Well you keep saying you don't want to change things because you don't know where the civs stand, which means they'll never really end up fixed unless you abandon that way of thinking. It's just so much quicker when you step of this ridiculously slow philosophy and actually start doing somewhat more aggressive balancing when there's actually the opportunity to do so. The only time you was "tricked" into making a pretty aggressive balance change you completely fixed a civ.

I don't keep saying that, I said it last iteration because we didn't have the manpower to playtest and discuss changes for civs whose position on the balance scale was somewhat of an unknown, as we also needed to deal with other issues. Now we can focus on these civs and make solid changes instead of guessing.
Let's agree to disagree.

[Diarouga]

Well you keep saying you don't want to change things because you don't know where the civs stand, which means they'll never really end up fixed unless you abandon that way of thinking. It's just so much quicker when you step of this ridiculously slow philosophy and actually start doing somewhat more aggressive balancing when there's actually the opportunity to do so. The only time you was "tricked" into making a pretty aggressive balance change you completely fixed a civ.

we didn't have the manpower to playtest and discuss changes for civs whose position on the balance scale was somewhat of an unknown.

Yep, and it surely has changed!

[deleted_user0]

lets not dramatize, its quite fine. GS just doesnt want to see that the revert of iro is only temporary, doesnt even have to go on the released patch, can just be on the test beta. have players play on it, and rebalance again from there. Otherwise, the thing that garja says is fine as well, return 100w. and if thats not enough, revert something again. I just dont want to add more changes where reverting changes is sufficient. It's like adding another buff to china in IV because of the old han nerf making their IV shitty, instead of just tweaking or reverting the old han nerf.