ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

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Post by Goodspeed »

Hi all,

It's time for another balance poll. The internal balance discussion in the patch team is set to start soon, and this poll will be an important source of data. Note we will not base our decision about which civs to change on this poll, it's only meant to give us an idea of what the community thinks is the state of balance. To discuss changes for specific civs please use this forum, we will be monitoring it closely.
The previous one was in August, before the tournament. Back then Portuguese were considered the top civ by a decent margin, Sioux and Iro were voted worst. The meta has had some time to settle, and top players' civ picks and civ performance in the tournament should tell us something about the state of balance. It will be interesting to see the difference between this poll and the previous one. Did people manage to find counters to the civs or builds that were considered OP in August, or have they found new, stronger ways to play certain civs?

Results of the previous poll can be viewed here. A summary of the previous poll's results can also be found on the new results page so it's easier to compare.

The new form
Results

This is only with 1v1 in mind, as teamgame balance is very different. No worries though we do intend to address team balance as well.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by deleted_user0 »

so what is balanced then? 5/6?
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by lemmings121 »

umeu wrote:so what is balanced then? 5/6?

atm, 6,41, just the average :P

Good thing i had a bunch of "8s" in my response and none 9 or 10, while some civs are anoying to play against, i dont feel like there is a civ like french last patch.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Garja »

With this system the median is "balanced", I suppose.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:so what is balanced then? 5/6?
The value in C17. Look at column D, that's the difference from the norm.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Hazza54321 »

Its relatively balanced for 1v1 i guess. Things like port or spain on high plains seem impossible to beat though
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Garja »

Goodspeed wrote:
umeu wrote:so what is balanced then? 5/6?
The value in C17. Look at column D, that's the difference from the norm.

The mean is highly affected by the outliers. Imo not a good indication of norm, let alone balance.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

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Post by edeholland »

To be honest I'm more interested what the top 32 (tourney players) think of this, maybe we can also have some kind of internal poll?
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

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Post by drsingh »

The entries should be reviewed before calculating end results.

One guy who dislikes Germany has given every civ 1 and Germany 10.. With multiple accounts (probably) and same in previous polls..

Yeah and the top 32- 16 tournament players seperate poll also would be better(in addition).. Since they are the ones who have experienced competitive matches most recently.

Also to make things easy. The data allowed should be. 1 to 9 (no 10). Where 5 is balanced. Calculations wont be accurate if someone doesn't understand the scale and rates all civ between 7- 10. It causes more displacement of mean.

A qualitative scale would do best. Eg.
Most-up up Marginally-Up balanced marginally-op op most-op (hidden scale 1-7).

To still be able to compare with previous polls --
Sd of a civ in previous poll /10... Compared with sd of civ in current poll / 9 or 7
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by britishmusketeer »

drsingh wrote:One guy who dislikes Germany has given every civ 1 and Germany 10.. With multiple accounts (probably) and same in previous polls..

lol was wondering why germany was so high up with everyone calling them a garbage civ.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by lordraphael »

Overall balace has become netter.however the number of extremely unfair mu has increased i fear. Some mus feel even more unfair than Iro/otto vs civX
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by pecelot »

I think GoatSpeed has got that covered, just like in the previous polls. He'll most likely exclude these fairly radical votes.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Jaeger »

edeholland wrote:To be honest I'm more interested what the top 32 (tourney players) think of this, maybe we can also have some kind of internal poll?

Most of top 32 players arent in ESOC
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by edeholland »

ovi12 wrote:
edeholland wrote:To be honest I'm more interested what the top 32 (tourney players) think of this, maybe we can also have some kind of internal poll?

Most of top 32 players arent in ESOC


You think so?

Anyways, I mean top 32 EP players, just the best players from all people who actually play the patch.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by pecelot »

Don't you have your own internal forum then? :hehe:
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Jaeger »

edeholland wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
edeholland wrote:To be honest I'm more interested what the top 32 (tourney players) think of this, maybe we can also have some kind of internal poll?

Most of top 32 players arent in ESOC


You think so?

Anyways, I mean top 32 EP players, just the best players from all people who actually play the patch.

Yeah I mean top 32 are on ESOC website but you said internal poll, and most of top 32 aren't esoc "officials" that would have access to internal polls I would guess.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Goodspeed »

drsingh wrote:The entries should be reviewed before calculating end results.

One guy who dislikes Germany has given every civ 1 and Germany 10.. With multiple accounts (probably) and same in previous polls..
I do throw out garbage entries.
Yeah and the top 32- 16 tournament players seperate poll also would be better(in addition).. Since they are the ones who have experienced competitive matches most recently.
To gather the opinion of top level players we have internal team discussion.
Also to make things easy. The data allowed should be. 1 to 9 (no 10). Where 5 is balanced. Calculations wont be accurate if someone doesn't understand the scale and rates all civ between 7- 10. It causes more displacement of mean.
It doesn't matter. The mean can be 8.00 for all I care, the important number is the distance from it for each specific civ.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Goodspeed »

Interestingly, so far it looks like the community hasn't changed its mind much about the state of balance throughout the tournament.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by iNcog »

Please don't nerf, please don't nerf, please don't nerf. Only buffs please!
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by drsingh »

If the mean is 8. Then the person who puts score 3 (perceiving 5 to be balanced) will have much larger impact than other who puts 6 (perceiving 10 to be balanced) where both think the civ is up.
But nvm.. It still works with respect to balance prediction.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

Dutch number 2? This poll is literally bullshit.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by lordraphael »

Jerom wrote:Dutch number 2? This poll is literally bullshit.

I think durch high rating mainly derives from low to mid level Players. Before This tourney i thought of durch as a top civ aswell. But the more You play as dutch the weaker they feel.ans i think no one has played more dutch games on the EP than i have. Except for You maybe. Overall id say they are a tier 2 civ. Which is average to me.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

lordraphael wrote:
Jerom wrote:Dutch number 2? This poll is literally bullshit.

I think durch high rating mainly derives from low to mid level Players. Before This tourney i thought of durch as a top civ aswell. But the more You play as dutch the weaker they feel.ans i think no one has played more dutch games on the EP than i have. Except for You maybe. Overall id say they are a tier 2 civ. Which is average to me.

That's exactly what dutch is like and what I've been trying to show to people. Yes they start out feeling great when these noob scrubs you face decide to not interact with you for 13 minutes straight, but when you face someone that actually hits a strong timing or properly punishes your weaknesses things honestly fall apart really quickly.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Atomiswave »

Are you two saying Dutch need more buffs?
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Dsy »

Its kinda wierd cause spain is voted higher than other civs. But its op only atp maps like hplains.
On no atp map they definitely do under german...
Maybe its the same for port. Its strong but not really op unless on atp maps.

Maybe an atp nerf could be a solution. Or dont make 5 tp maps...

Havent really seen siux and iro games in tournament though...

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