ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

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is it possible for the ep to change apearence of units somehow? toma+aena in a mass are just impossible do diferentiate mid game to properly micro against x.x

Yes, it is. I think changes like that would be great.

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Nah all iro units range from good to amazing. But that's how TWC are designed, they have shit eco and op units. Let's revert Iro for the lolz.

This is true except for the Tomahawk; less so for Aztec and Sioux.

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True, iro is shit right now, seriously when I play it I lose to pr30 guys. They have some potential with their ff builds, because the iro ff is still scary but it can't beat rushes.
Atm there is absolutely nothing you can do vs an indian/port 10/10, a spain ff and all the other shits.

Iroquois sounds like the perfect excuse, then.

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Show hidden quotes

Well you keep saying you don't want to change things because you don't know where the civs stand, which means they'll never really end up fixed unless you abandon that way of thinking. It's just so much quicker when you step of this ridiculously slow philosophy and actually start doing somewhat more aggressive balancing when there's actually the opportunity to do so. The only time you was "tricked" into making a pretty aggressive balance change you completely fixed a civ.

I don't keep saying that, I said it last iteration because we didn't have the manpower to playtest and discuss changes for civs whose position on the balance scale was somewhat of an unknown, as we also needed to deal with other issues. Now we can focus on these civs and make solid changes instead of guessing.
Let's agree to disagree.

Id agree to disagree if your opinion showed understanding of what I tried to say. It doesnt really show that unfortunately.

so what are you trying to say, perhaps you are just not very good at making yourself clear if you are being misunderstood all the time

Or, GS is just high.

It's entirely Goodspeed's fault, to be honest.

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Dutch 300w banks. I wasn't a fan of that change.

Yeah it's shit – should have been 300f Banks.

[Garja]

Tomahawk have great HP due to WC aura stacking on multiple ups. Also stacking on 25% vet up.

[deleted_user0]

Well india is one of their best mus and you're saying eco india even beats dutch so I'm saying dutch would then be super shit. I just don't think that eco india beats dutch unless eco india karni or whatever you're proposing is like super strong.

it does.

[deleted_user0]

Tomahawk have great HP due to WC aura stacking on multiple ups. Also stacking on 25% vet up.

ye the upgrades make toma good, their base stats arent great tho. not bad, but nothing special. same for kanya. aenna are the shit tho!

[momuuu]

Well india is one of their best mus and you're saying eco india even beats dutch so I'm saying dutch would then be super shit. I just don't think that eco india beats dutch unless eco india karni or whatever you're proposing is like super strong.

it does.

This is one Id have to see before Ill believe it.

[Hazza54321]

Dont dutch just shit on india

[deleted_user0]

Well india is one of their best mus and you're saying eco india even beats dutch so I'm saying dutch would then be super shit. I just don't think that eco india beats dutch unless eco india karni or whatever you're proposing is like super strong.

it does.

This is one Id have to see before Ill believe it.

play me.

[Garja]

India does fine vs Dutch.

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Tomahawk have great HP due to WC aura stacking on multiple ups. Also stacking on 25% vet up.

Right. I cannot by any means call Tomahawks good compared to Musketeers. They are basically bad Musketeers.

[Darwin_]

Tomahawk have great HP due to WC aura stacking on multiple ups. Also stacking on 25% vet up.

Right. I cannot by any means call Tomahawks good compared to Musketeers. They are basically bad Musketeers.

They do better vs cav though

[britishmusketeer]

main issue with tomahawks is the animation tbh

[lemmings121]

Well india is one of their best mus and you're saying eco india even beats dutch so I'm saying dutch would then be super shit. I just don't think that eco india beats dutch unless eco india karni or whatever you're proposing is like super strong.

it does.

It doesn't. A top tier player did a karni build agaisnt my dutch and lost.
Based solely on that evidence i can say that the india bo sux. Winning games is not something to be expected from me.

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How in the love of fuck is Indians supposed to beat Dutch unless with a lucky timing?

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Tomahawk have great HP due to WC aura stacking on multiple ups. Also stacking on 25% vet up.

Right. I cannot by any means call Tomahawks good compared to Musketeers. They are basically bad Musketeers.

They do better vs cav though

In melee theory, sure.

[deleted_user0]

Well india is one of their best mus and you're saying eco india even beats dutch so I'm saying dutch would then be super shit. I just don't think that eco india beats dutch unless eco india karni or whatever you're proposing is like super strong.

it does.

It doesn't. A top tier player did a karni build agaisnt my dutch and lost.
Based solely on that evidence i can say that the india bo sux. Winning games is not something to be expected from me.

who did and what did he do?

[lemmings121]

Show hidden quotes

Well india is one of their best mus and you're saying eco india even beats dutch so I'm saying dutch would then be super shit. I just don't think that eco india beats dutch unless eco india karni or whatever you're proposing is like super strong.

it does.

It doesn't. A top tier player did a karni build agaisnt my dutch and lost.
Based solely on that evidence i can say that the india bo sux. Winning games is not something to be expected from me.

who did and what did he do?

Wickedcossack did a karni zamb semi agaisnt what was supposed to be a huss semi, I just didnt train any huss, aged, won with eco.
Tbf with him, maybe he was messing arround with new bos, but that one didnt seen scary at all.

[Garja]

Tomahawks have an extra upgrade compared to brit musks up until fortress. Plus 5% more vet up and the WC aura that stacks over everything.

India can beat Dutch if they manage to age to fortress too late and hold the first wave of shipments. In the long run they get better eco and better units. They do deplete mines faster tho (like most of civs). Dutch 5th bank does make a difference here.
Alternatively with a good rush into 9-10 min timing. H2O went close to do that but made some mistakes.

[yurashic]

Nah all iro units range from good to amazing. But that's how TWC are designed, they have shit eco and op units. Let's revert Iro for the lolz.

I do not agree. Tomahawks cost more than musketeers and are significantly worse because of animation and less ranged damage. Hand cavalry costs wood and has no upgrades, but they are fine, just nothing special. Aennas are basically crossbowmen who trade long animation for 5 speed instead of 4.

Skirmishers and dragoons are fine, a bit more cost effective. Stealth is good too.

Iroquois have no falconets or culverins in age 3, so artillery is a problem.

I do not see any particularly amazing units, do you mean mantlets and rams? :)

[yurashic]

I'm confused. Is everyone asking to revert Iro to RE trolling or have you all gone crazy?

Let's revert and see, I think they will be fine, if not - we could try making the travois from age 2 a discovery travois like people mentioned.

[britishmusketeer]

Would have to make it so that it can't build stables also imo.

[gibson]

Well india is one of their best mus and you're saying eco india even beats dutch so I'm saying dutch would then be super shit. I just don't think that eco india beats dutch unless eco india karni or whatever you're proposing is like super strong.

eco India looses to agressive skirm pike as well