ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Goodspeed »

Diarouga wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Jerom wrote:Well you keep saying you don't want to change things because you don't know where the civs stand, which means they'll never really end up fixed unless you abandon that way of thinking. It's just so much quicker when you step of this ridiculously slow philosophy and actually start doing somewhat more aggressive balancing when there's actually the opportunity to do so. The only time you was "tricked" into making a pretty aggressive balance change you completely fixed a civ.

we didn't have the manpower to playtest and discuss changes for civs whose position on the balance scale was somewhat of an unknown.

Yep, and it surely has changed!
Lol there was a comma after unknown...
, as we also needed to deal with other issues
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

Goodspeed wrote:
Jerom wrote:Well you keep saying you don't want to change things because you don't know where the civs stand, which means they'll never really end up fixed unless you abandon that way of thinking. It's just so much quicker when you step of this ridiculously slow philosophy and actually start doing somewhat more aggressive balancing when there's actually the opportunity to do so. The only time you was "tricked" into making a pretty aggressive balance change you completely fixed a civ.
I don't keep saying that, I said it last iteration because we didn't have the manpower to playtest and discuss changes for civs whose position on the balance scale was somewhat of an unknown, as we also needed to deal with other issues. Now we can focus on these civs and make solid changes instead of guessing.
Let's agree to disagree.

Id agree to disagree if your opinion showed understanding of what I tried to say. It doesnt really show that unfortunately.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Dsy »

umeu wrote:lets not dramatize, its quite fine. GS just doesnt want to see that the revert of iro is only temporary, doesnt even have to go on the released patch, can just be on the test beta. have players play on it, and rebalance again from there. Otherwise, the thing that garja says is fine as well, return 100w. and if thats not enough, revert something again. I just dont want to add more changes where reverting changes is sufficient. It's like adding another buff to china in IV because of the old han nerf making their IV shitty, instead of just tweaking or reverting the old han nerf.


Why would you buff china if its already strong? Noone want to see unkillable pike and bows i guess. Their stats hurts peoples eyes.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by deleted_user0 »

its an example =________________=
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Jerom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Jerom wrote:Well you keep saying you don't want to change things because you don't know where the civs stand, which means they'll never really end up fixed unless you abandon that way of thinking. It's just so much quicker when you step of this ridiculously slow philosophy and actually start doing somewhat more aggressive balancing when there's actually the opportunity to do so. The only time you was "tricked" into making a pretty aggressive balance change you completely fixed a civ.
I don't keep saying that, I said it last iteration because we didn't have the manpower to playtest and discuss changes for civs whose position on the balance scale was somewhat of an unknown, as we also needed to deal with other issues. Now we can focus on these civs and make solid changes instead of guessing.
Let's agree to disagree.

Id agree to disagree if your opinion showed understanding of what I tried to say. It doesnt really show that unfortunately.


so what are you trying to say, perhaps you are just not very good at making yourself clear if you are being misunderstood all the time :P

Or, GS is just high.
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Italy Garja
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Garja »

Iro are not far from playable. Let's face it, people don't like TWC civs and more importantly they don't know shit about them because they tend to play with the nice boomy euro style.
It actually takes just one buff or so for iros to be competitive again. Like a starting TP (+100w) would change everything.
Sioux are different. Sioux rely by design on damaging the opponent, just like Otto. EP meta kinda killed Sioux natural advantage.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Diarouga »

n0eL wrote:
Diarouga wrote:
n0eL wrote:Revert iro is fine. One of the reasons they are broken on re is because of maps having no safe resources. They are like opposite of ports. RE port on ESOC maps are strong. RE port on RE map are shit.

No, iro ff is broken as well.


Ok then why is no one playing them in big events?

RE iro ff.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Atomiswave »

Dsy wrote:
umeu wrote:lets not dramatize, its quite fine. GS just doesnt want to see that the revert of iro is only temporary, doesnt even have to go on the released patch, can just be on the test beta. have players play on it, and rebalance again from there. Otherwise, the thing that garja says is fine as well, return 100w. and if thats not enough, revert something again. I just dont want to add more changes where reverting changes is sufficient. It's like adding another buff to china in IV because of the old han nerf making their IV shitty, instead of just tweaking or reverting the old han nerf.


Why would you buff china if its already strong? Noone want to see unkillable pike and bows i guess. Their stats hurts peoples eyes.


Its not strong, China is average at best atm. Nobody said reverse Han to re status, just lessen Han nerf to be viable again. Many agreed to -25% or more until we find sweet spot. 50 is too much....
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Goodspeed »

Jerom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Jerom wrote:Well you keep saying you don't want to change things because you don't know where the civs stand, which means they'll never really end up fixed unless you abandon that way of thinking. It's just so much quicker when you step of this ridiculously slow philosophy and actually start doing somewhat more aggressive balancing when there's actually the opportunity to do so. The only time you was "tricked" into making a pretty aggressive balance change you completely fixed a civ.
I don't keep saying that, I said it last iteration because we didn't have the manpower to playtest and discuss changes for civs whose position on the balance scale was somewhat of an unknown, as we also needed to deal with other issues. Now we can focus on these civs and make solid changes instead of guessing.
Let's agree to disagree.
Id agree to disagree if your opinion showed understanding of what I tried to say. It doesnt really show that unfortunately.
:hmm: ok that's probably my bad. Where did I misunderstand you?
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Dsy »

Atomiswave wrote:
Dsy wrote:
umeu wrote:lets not dramatize, its quite fine. GS just doesnt want to see that the revert of iro is only temporary, doesnt even have to go on the released patch, can just be on the test beta. have players play on it, and rebalance again from there. Otherwise, the thing that garja says is fine as well, return 100w. and if thats not enough, revert something again. I just dont want to add more changes where reverting changes is sufficient. It's like adding another buff to china in IV because of the old han nerf making their IV shitty, instead of just tweaking or reverting the old han nerf.


Why would you buff china if its already strong? Noone want to see unkillable pike and bows i guess. Their stats hurts peoples eyes.


Its not strong, China is average at best atm. Nobody said reverse Han to re status, just lessen Han nerf to be viable again. Many agreed to -25% or more until we find sweet spot. 50 is too much....


50 is totally fine for them. There is no reason to make pike and bow better than their sword and rifle inf. And it still can be optional if all coin mines runs out.
I dont want see china make only 1 type of army all games long cause its op sorry.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:Well you keep saying you don't want to change things because you don't know where the civs stand, which means they'll never really end up fixed unless you abandon that way of thinking. It's just so much quicker when you step of this ridiculously slow philosophy and actually start doing somewhat more aggressive balancing when there's actually the opportunity to do so. The only time you was "tricked" into making a pretty aggressive balance change you completely fixed a civ.

What balance change are you talking about here ?
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Goodspeed »

Dutch 300w banks. I wasn't a fan of that change.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Atomiswave »

Dsy wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Its not strong, China is average at best atm. Nobody said reverse Han to re status, just lessen Han nerf to be viable again. Many agreed to -25% or more until we find sweet spot. 50 is too much....


50 is totally fine for them. There is no reason to make pike and bow better than their sword and rifle inf. And it still can be optional if all coin mines runs out.
I dont want see china make only 1 type of army all games long cause its op sorry.


Problem is China doesn't have other viable age 4 options. Alternative is to upgrade all 4 main units it uses(changdao, arquebuster, fail, hammer) which costs tons of resources for subpar late game eco even if you manage to get russian factory. In terms of upg. cards there is manchu combat and western reforms which suck as age 4 cards. It has to go Han at least partially in order to be competitive late game.....
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Dsy wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Its not strong, China is average at best atm. Nobody said reverse Han to re status, just lessen Han nerf to be viable again. Many agreed to -25% or more until we find sweet spot. 50 is too much....


50 is totally fine for them. There is no reason to make pike and bow better than their sword and rifle inf. And it still can be optional if all coin mines runs out.
I dont want see china make only 1 type of army all games long cause its op sorry.


thats just totally silly =_=
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:Dutch 300w banks. I wasn't a fan of that change.


the answer is just nilla tbh. In terms of balance, nilla wasnt even that bad. With the TAD counter system and better maps, just nilla bro. @Aizamk knows the truth.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Kaiserklein »

I wouldn't say 300w banks "completely fixed the civ"...
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

As close as it gets, but yeah they also needed the extra bank xp.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Aizamk »

I feel like dutch pretty stronk if not top civ atm, and if anyone says otherwise their name is probably Jerom. Did dutch even lose a game past the RO8?
oranges.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

Yes. Dutch vs france lordraphael vs irish. Only a 50% winrate past the RO8.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by Aizamk »

doesn't count if you decide to not make units
oranges.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

Okay you're right. Dutch won one game past the RO8 under aiz conditions and is thus OP.

Meanwhile Im interested in seeing how dutch wins all these match ups that I called hard a few pages back.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Jerom wrote:Yes. Dutch vs france lordraphael vs irish. Only a 50% winrate past the RO8.


tbh dutch had that game in the bag and lost due to bad map and wrong shipment decision by rapha.

funnily, dutch won vs india while india crusherz dutcheeeez
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

Honestly if thats true then dutch might be shit still, but I don't think it is true.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by deleted_user0 »

eh? dutch is fine, its strong but not too strong i think.

Russia beats it, spain does, vs ports its close (probably ports win water, dutch win land), Aztec FI beats dutch, Brits wins barely, don't know about japan and ger, they probably still barely win. Dutch probably beats all other civs.
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Re: ESOC patch balance poll #4 (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

Well india is one of their best mus and you're saying eco india even beats dutch so I'm saying dutch would then be super shit. I just don't think that eco india beats dutch unless eco india karni or whatever you're proposing is like super strong.

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