ATP should be nerfed

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by Goodspeed »

From what I've seen ATP is strong on maps with 4+ TPs, but absolutely counterable. For one I think Brits autowin against any ATP play because they can get an early TP every game and steal one more in transition, after which their manor boom easily outscales their opponent's TP boom. So already it's not uncounterable, and it seems likely that there are more civs with the ability to steal TPs and/or outboom regardless. Therefore I see no reason to change this card at the moment.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by lordraphael »

Havent you stepped down from the patch team ?
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by momuuu »

Short-sighted analysis goodspeed. The current ATP builds are rather specific:
- ports get atp and a bunch of TCs producing cheap villagers. I believe generic consensus is that ports beat brit on a 4-5 TP map. If british take one tp its not necessarily true that they will outscale ports, nor that outscaling is the only thing that matters (otherwise any eco civ would be OP af).
- Spain atp is very specific, its an eco heavy straight FF which hits very hard if its allowed to happen. Outscaling here is more irrelevant than ever.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by Goodspeed »

lordraphael wrote:Havent you stepped down from the patch team ?
Sort of. Does it matter?

- ports get atp and a bunch of TCs producing cheap villagers. I believe generic consensus is that ports beat brit on a 4-5 TP map. If british take one tp its not necessarily true that they will outscale ports, nor that outscaling is the only thing that matters (otherwise any eco civ would be OP af).
It matters a lot in match ups between two boom civs. Consensus is a dangerous thing to just take for truth, in fact it needs to be questioned for the meta to evolve at all. It has been wrong many times before.

- Spain atp is very specific, its an eco heavy straight FF which hits very hard if its allowed to happen. Outscaling here is more irrelevant than ever.
I don't know, it seems likely Brit would be okay in an eco heavy straight FF mirror. And if not Brit then some other civ. It doesn't quite sound like an uncounterable build to me.

But let's say it is, for the sake of argument. 4-5 TP maps are rare, and like any non-standard map they favour a certain play style. Why is that a problem in this case, and not for say Indonesia?
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by kami_ryu »

Goodspeed wrote:From what I've seen ATP is strong on maps with 4+ TPs, but absolutely counterable. For one I think Brits autowin against any ATP play because they can get an early TP every game and steal one more in transition, after which their manor boom easily outscales their opponent's TP boom. So already it's not uncounterable, and it seems likely that there are more civs with the ability to steal TPs and/or outboom regardless. Therefore I see no reason to change this card at the moment.


I'm watching pro replays at the moment and something you're describing happened in one such game (I put in the proper time stamp):

https://youtu.be/sW-mASzCQ7M?t=1h12m16s
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:
lordraphael wrote:Havent you stepped down from the patch team ?
Sort of. Does it matter?

- ports get atp and a bunch of TCs producing cheap villagers. I believe generic consensus is that ports beat brit on a 4-5 TP map. If british take one tp its not necessarily true that they will outscale ports, nor that outscaling is the only thing that matters (otherwise any eco civ would be OP af).
It matters a lot in match ups between two boom civs. Consensus is a dangerous thing to just take for truth, in fact it needs to be questioned for the meta to evolve at all. It has been wrong many times before.

- Spain atp is very specific, its an eco heavy straight FF which hits very hard if its allowed to happen. Outscaling here is more irrelevant than ever.
I don't know, it seems likely Brit would be okay in an eco heavy straight FF mirror. And if not Brit then some other civ. It doesn't quite sound like an uncounterable build to me.

But let's say it is, for the sake of argument. 4-5 TP maps are rare, and like any non-standard map they favour a certain play style. Why is that a problem in this case, and not for say Indonesia?
STEP THE FUCK DOWN!!
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by deleted_user0 »

Vs Spain it's a bit harder to pull off, but atp play can be easily punished by early aggression coupled with aggressive delaying or obstructing of the tps built by villagers with mm or natives. If you know atp is a possibility you just hunt down their explorer and then kill the vils cause they take forever to build. For sprain going atp leaves them very vulnerable to allin rushes, tho granted, not every civ can do it

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