ESOC Patch is unbalanced

France Kaiserklein
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by Kaiserklein »

Ports don't even need CM. Imo having to send CM is kinda a failure, it's just a very passive card, I feel like there should be better stuff to send generally speaking. What is scary with ports right now is they don't even need to turtle to win. They're more or less able to play everything like France early on, but then they basically also get free tcs.
But then CM can ofc be useful in some cases, especially when you go water. But that's not the main issue with ports imo.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by deleted_user »

Kaiserklein wrote:Ports don't even need CM. Imo having to send CM is kinda a failure, it's just a very passive card, I feel like there should be better stuff to send generally speaking. What is scary with ports right now is they don't even need to turtle to win. They're more or less able to play everything like France early on, but then they basically also get free tcs.
But then CM can ofc be useful in some cases, especially when you go water. But that's not the main issue with ports imo.

I disagree here unfortunately :/ Not sending CM costs you game sometimes
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yes because of your playstyle. But turtling doesn't work on a map that doesn't have obscene amounts of resources in base, vs a player who knows what he's doing.
CM can be useful as I said, but you can play ports without it np.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by momuuu »

I honestly think its absolute bullshit to consider all these subjective things about a civ when nobody is talking about the expected winrate ports have in all the match ups.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by Garja »

Port and Dutch win rates are quite high atm. And people arent even using the best builds.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by Gendarme »

Best build: Age up, click shipments.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Port and Dutch win rates are quite high atm. And people arent even using the best builds.

Id like to see you make that case more strongly. I think all things considered dutch have a very mediocre winrate.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:I honestly think its absolute bullshit to consider all these subjective things about a civ when nobody is talking about the expected winrate ports have in all the match ups.

Yep but trying to write the expected win rate of ports in all match ups is bullshit as well, because it's subjective too. At least I myself can't do that because I haven't even played ports in all match ups, and even if I did you need to play a lot of games in a given match up to give an estimation of its balance. I also don't think I know anyone that both played ports enough on this patch (say at least 5 games in every match up) and has a high level. So I'm not sure who could write those win rates, and if anyone tried to it probs wouldn't be accurate at all.

But from my experience with ports, which I still played quite a lot recently, I'd say they win 10 match ups out of 13 by a fair margin, like 60-40 or sth, or at very least 55-45 in some cases. The 3 remaining civs are brits, dutch and japan. Brits beat ports regardless of the map (except maybe on heavy water maps, not sure), and then I'm not sure about ports vs dutch/japan. Those 2 are close match ups, and they depend a lot on the map : TPs favour ports over those 2 civs, the amount of hunts on the map/in base matter a lot for port vs japan, the amount of gold matters a lot for ports vs dutch (especially the amount of gold in your base), and water also matters a lot. So it's hard to tell. Ports probs win 55-45 vs both those civs on TP maps but I'm not sure.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by r4go »

Darwin_ wrote:
r4go wrote:
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How u can fource german going bow?? Need some example :love: :love: :love:

If say you're french/brits vs. french/german, you can double musk rush and force them to bow, and then ship 3 huss or add a stable.

Yeah i do often. Thx dude
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by momuuu »

I think spain is a bad match up for ports too, which makes me consider them not that great. I suppose if we cant even guess the match ups its too early to be talking about it.

Btw with 'objective' criteria I meant criteria that have an objective value, like estimated winrate does. The other things being said like 'they get vills really quick' have a very subjective value in that the way that statement can be interpreted is very broad.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by deleted_user0 »

lol jerom thats kinda weird, because estimation of win rates (thus not talking about the actual winrates) depends on how you rate the civ. So if you rate a civ highly, you will estimate a higher winrate. But the reasons for rating a civ highly or poorly are subjective. However a statement such as they get vills really quick is quite objective. Either a civ gets them quickly, or not (we can debate about what timeframe counts as quick, but within that timeframe that statement counts as objective). So you can say about brits that they get vils quickly (or atleast they have the ability to do so) however you cannot say the same about otto's (unless you are also willing to take tp's into the equation, but in that case you should be talking about eco). They get vills really quick has quite narrow interpration value, it seems to me. You can argue obviously about how much of an advantage getting vils really quick is, thats true. and different players with different playstyles will rate this objective characteristic of a civ differently.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:I think spain is a bad match up for ports too, which makes me consider them not that great. I suppose if we cant even guess the match ups its too early to be talking about it.


Well vs spain it's map dependant again imo. Pretty sure ports just shit on the standard spain ff (one tp straight ff), but they might lose vs atp spain, simply because spain's atp is smoother : they have 2 more vils than ports during transition since they can ship 3 vils and still have atp in time, which means they will grab tps slightly faster, and more importantly they have a dog (and can train more) which means you can easily deny tps. I don't think ports should ever send atp vs spain for those reasons (a few dogs would even kill a vil trying to build a tp, because vils build them so slowly), so yeah spain would maybe win on 4+ tp maps. The goon nerf matters too. Would need testing.
But imo on more standard maps ports just win. So generally speaking, ports still win at least 10 mus out of 13, imo. Probs 12 out of 13 on a standard map. Which it would obviously be a top civ.


Jerom wrote:Btw with 'objective' criteria I meant criteria that have an objective value, like estimated winrate does. The other things being said like 'they get vills really quick' have a very subjective value in that the way that statement can be interpreted is very broad.

Yeah I see what you mean, estimated win rate is more accurate. But it's not objective, since people will not always agree on those rates.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by momuuu »

Well yes its a fact, but what I mean is that the statement in itself has an extremely subjective relation to balance or the strength of a civ. There's very little possibility to have meaningful discussion over such a statement and how it relates to balance. The subjectivity is in what a statement like this actually means in relation is so large that I think its a useless statement.

Something like "ports loses quite hard to spain" is a much more useful statement. Its something you can disagree with based on replays, reasoning, and also a statement you can discuss and explore to the point where more understanding is gained. That statement has an objective relation to balance, but is subjective. You move the subjectivity to the actual statement that is being discussed, which is much better.

For example if you actually just look at civ strengths and generic civ performance it is extremely easy to, imo wrongfully so, conclude dutch is overpowered. If you start looking at match ups and winrate I think you could conclude dutch isnt even tier 1.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by momuuu »

@kaiserklein I dont have much experience in the match up but I think standard spain ff is quite potent against ports. How do you beat it then?

I mean, ports start to get closer to top civ if they beat this civ, dutch and japan. I dont really know how great they are against other civs. They surely could be the best and somewhere in the future you can try to adjust their strength level, but theres a chance you might just make the balance worse. Theyre pretty close to the rest imo. I think iro/sioux and possibly india/otto are more in need of balance changes.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well spain used to beat ports just because ports were too slow, and now this problem is solved. Just like in most other match ups tbh, the 80f vils let ports be fast enough to defend the fortress push.
You defend it like you used to, except that now, it works. You can just straight ff and mass goons + some cassas and I guess you should be fine, or you can musks semi like some other civs do (you won't be able to ship falcs with those musks though, so probs not the best idea here). Tbh you might even be able to just play colonial musk cav and win with superior eco, even though that sounds risky. Straight ff is probs still the safest. I don't know how spain can beat a quick goon mass with a strong eco behind it and free mapcontrol. Even if you manage to get a forward tc down (which I doubt) ports probs still win after that.

Against other civs they are really great. Let's put it this way : I'm pretty sure the only civ ports lose to, on an average map (say, a map with 2-3 tps, no water, average resources), is brits. So generally speaking, on an average map, I think ports are a clear tier 1 civ, if not the top civ.
Then no tp maps hurts ports since they kinda need crates early on to make up for their weak eco, so they're not as strong there. And water maps strongly advantage ports in most match ups. So if you consider other maps as well, ports are still very good. Those maps are a minority anyway, and in tourney you know what map you're playing ports on (basically you can play them on all maps except no tp maps and you're golden), so it doesn't really matter.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:I honestly think its absolute bullshit to consider all these subjective things about a civ when nobody is talking about the expected winrate ports have in all the match ups.
Let alone talking about the factors going against one's conviction...
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:
Garja wrote:Port and Dutch win rates are quite high atm. And people arent even using the best builds.

Id like to see you make that case more strongly. I think all things considered dutch have a very mediocre winrate.
Most everyone else seems to disagree, though. That is worth noting.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by Darwin_ »

britishmusketeer wrote:
Jerom wrote:
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So theyre not OP in 1v1 or what are you even trying to say? If youve played five games with them you should probably just keep your judgement to yourself.

You really shouldn't take balance input from master sergeants so seriously...

The fact that I am a lt literally has no effect on my ability to judge the strength of a civ. I am a lt not because of my builds, but because of my inability to make the correct strategic decisions/multitasking. I am very much capable of doing a build correctly and well. It really only takes 5 games to really figure out the differences in dutch from the last version to this. You'll see how their boom is a fair bit faster and smoother, how they can build a 5th bank and sacrifice less age-up time than on 1.2 (or mix a TP without chopping any more wood than 1.2), and how they are comparatively better in age 3 because of their above-average eco and slightly stronger military due to the goon nerf. They are not OP by any means now, and if french and germany had not been nerfed, they would be fine. However they were nerfed, and Dutch is now comparatively quite strong.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by Garja »

Jerom wrote:Well yes its a fact, but what I mean is that the statement in itself has an extremely subjective relation to balance or the strength of a civ. There's very little possibility to have meaningful discussion over such a statement and how it relates to balance. The subjectivity is in what a statement like this actually means in relation is so large that I think its a useless statement.

Something like "ports loses quite hard to spain" is a much more useful statement. Its something you can disagree with based on replays, reasoning, and also a statement you can discuss and explore to the point where more understanding is gained. That statement has an objective relation to balance, but is subjective. You move the subjectivity to the actual statement that is being discussed, which is much better.

For example if you actually just look at civ strengths and generic civ performance it is extremely easy to, imo wrongfully so, conclude dutch is overpowered. If you start looking at match ups and winrate I think you could conclude dutch isnt even tier 1.


Actually, MU specific assessments in my experience tend to be the least reliable statements. And that's because each player projects his own way to play the MU, often ignoring some counter strats or other details. It takes quite some experience to assess MUs correctly. For example, I wouldn't even say Ports lose to Spain, despite the fact that I win most of games with Spain in that MU.

On the other hand, stuff like 80f vills or a 5th bank are more objectively wrong just because they don't compare well with similar features/mechanics.

As for empirical win rates, which do count to some extent indeed, if you look better you will notice that both Dutch and Ports have good ones so far.
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Re: ESOC PATCH IS UNBALANCED

Post by momuuu »

Darwin_ wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:You really shouldn't take balance input from master sergeants so seriously...

The fact that I am a lt literally has no effect on my ability to judge the strength of a civ. I am a lt not because of my builds, but because of my inability to make the correct strategic decisions/multitasking. I am very much capable of doing a build correctly and well. It really only takes 5 games to really figure out the differences in dutch from the last version to this. You'll see how their boom is a fair bit faster and smoother, how they can build a 5th bank and sacrifice less age-up time than on 1.2 (or mix a TP without chopping any more wood than 1.2), and how they are comparatively better in age 3 because of their above-average eco and slightly stronger military due to the goon nerf. They are not OP by any means now, and if french and germany had not been nerfed, they would be fine. However they were nerfed, and Dutch is now comparatively quite strong.

If you're a lt you are because of your builds. Seriously. It doesnt take only 5 games to figure out the differences, thats ridiculous. The irony wants us that you also truly don't have a clue what you are talking about.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by momuuu »

@Garja I think getting a rough estimate as to how a match up is is much easier than arguing that 80f vills is wrong for *insert bullshit reasons*.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by Kaiserklein »

But it's so hard to estimate match ups win rates properly :/ while it's so easy to realize that ports are just so much faster than before, which means they both have a very good mid-late game eco and a very decent early game. Which means the civ is (too) strong.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by momuuu »

It just doesn't mean that the civ is too strong. It means nothing tangible.
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by gibson »

I like how everyone who doesn't play team is like port is fine but basically every team player who's played team on ep is like port is just way way too strong......
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Re: ESOC Patch is unbalanced

Post by momuuu »

I can see team port being pretty OP yeah. Seems too hard to solve though.

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