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China Couprider
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12 Jan 2017, 08:35

I found this MU quite annoying:
1. start stable or rax: which is better?
2. if both of us start rax and trained some dopple, should i keep spamming dopples and send upgrades, or try to age up?
3. is straight ff available? seems ff+blackrider beats dopple, but lose to uhlan raiding semiff.

dopple is quite different from musk: if he has more musk, i can just escape. but if he has more dopple and my dopples are caught, it will become a massacre.
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Poland pecelot
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12 Jan 2017, 11:09

Game 1


Game 1


Game 1
My Tips of the Day! :flowers:
get milkt
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New Zealand zoom
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12 Jan 2017, 13:32

RE: Make Uhlans.
EP: Don't make Uhlans.
sudmakmak wrote:This patch Keshik don't have buff anti cavalry = noob patch2.0
and don't have nerf hard japan = noob patch2.0
because all more noob player at this patch = noob logic.
or they maybe have boyfriend.(japanese boyfriend fuck your ass them)
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United States of America __Uhlan__
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12 Jan 2017, 15:10

I like to start stable make 5 uhlans, send 700w first either use it for a rax houses and more market ups etc but if I scout him and don't see a rax up yet I just get another tp or save the wood for houses. Then 3sw 700c regardless if your massing dops or aging. But imo it's a complex mirror in if he is pushing you or committing under TC I would send 3 dops instead of 700g. Just scout a lot in this MU and make the right call imo. But I always start stable & send 700w first it's just very flexible imo.
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Italy DaRkNiTe1698
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12 Jan 2017, 15:16

Watch h2o vs blackstar on spring. You can basically keep that in EP too, since its just a slight uhlans nerf
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France Kaiserklein
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12 Jan 2017, 15:39

1. I would mostly start rax, because dops simply owns ger colonial. Starting stable would mean you rely only on raiding, which won't work on a good map. If germany had huss, you could probs start stable against dopples, because huss have enough hp to catch dops with mm behind to kill them. Uhlans simply can't, because you instantly die to dops, especially on ep (3 dops 1-hit a uhlan). But then it always depends on the map, if it's really large (baja california for example) then I guess it's better to be mobile.

2. If you both start rax, I would definitely advise to try an age up. Simply because if you have a mass of, say, 8-10 dops, and can call mm and/or 8 bows behind to defend your base, you should be able to defend, even if your opponent has for example 5 dops 5 uhlans more than you. Dops + RI is just a very solid composition, especially in your base. Also once aged up, war wagons simply shit on dop cav, and on bows in small amounts.
I don't believe that staying age 2 for mass upgraded dops ever works, you won't damage your opponent enough because as I said he can camp in base with dops+ri, and then you have no way to beat his age 3.

3. Straight ff works with an early TP. The early TP allows you to ship 3sw / 700g in a row, and have 700g just in time for a very fast age up (7 min or so), and still a shipment ready or almost once in fortress. With that build, you will beat a dop/cav timing (700w/700g) or a dop mass. I think you would lose to a fast cav semi though, because the guy will idle you and age up not much later, most likely with better infrastructures, and could maybe even burn your TP.
Without early TP, the build would be 3 sw / 700w, because 700g would come too late anyway. But this ff is very slow, since you have to gather all the gold for your age up. It works very well in some match ups, but definitely not in ger mirror, your opponent would damage you too much.
Other ff builds would mean you age up with 500f and ship 700g directly, but imo it's not a viable option.
One last thing : shipping blackriders first after a straight ff is very risky, because it's really slow. Against dops, you would probs lose your tc. I would rather ship 3 ww or 8 skirms, depending on your opponent's units. And if your opponent doesn't push you when you hit fortress, then 1000w would be better anyway, because you will need infrastructures since you didn't ship 700w.


In a ger mirror fortress war, don't make wws. They don't even beat uhlans. The optimal composition is full uhlans + 9 blackriders. Only if your opponent makes dops, you'll need skirms, but dops are bad in age 3 anyway
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Canada Mitoe
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12 Jan 2017, 15:57

This is the one mirror you likely won't find any consensus on. You can make almost any strategy work in German mirror.

There are tons of variations and adaptations to other variations.
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China Couprider
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12 Jan 2017, 15:58

Kaiserklein wrote:1. I would mostly start rax, because dops simply owns ger colonial. Starting stable would mean you rely only on raiding, which won't work on a good map. If germany had huss, you could probs start stable against dopples, because huss have enough hp to catch dops with mm behind to kill them. Uhlans simply can't, because you instantly die to dops, especially on ep (3 dops 1-hit a uhlan). But then it always depends on the map, if it's really large (baja california for example) then I guess it's better to be mobile.

2. If you both start rax, I would definitely advise to try an age up. Simply because if you have a mass of, say, 8-10 dops, and can call mm and/or 8 bows behind to defend your base, you should be able to defend, even if your opponent has for example 5 dops 5 uhlans more than you. Dops + RI is just a very solid composition, especially in your base. Also once aged up, war wagons simply shit on dop cav, and on bows in small amounts.
I don't believe that staying age 2 for mass upgraded dops ever works, you won't damage your opponent enough because as I said he can camp in base with dops+ri, and then you have no way to beat his age 3.

3. Straight ff works with an early TP. The early TP allows you to ship 3sw / 700g in a row, and have 700g just in time for a very fast age up (7 min or so), and still a shipment ready or almost once in fortress. With that build, you will beat a dop/cav timing (700w/700g) or a dop mass. I think you would lose to a fast cav semi though, because the guy will idle you and age up not much later, most likely with better infrastructures, and could maybe even burn your TP.
Without early TP, the build would be 3 sw / 700w, because 700g would come too late anyway. But this ff is very slow, since you have to gather all the gold for your age up. It works very well in some match ups, but definitely not in ger mirror, your opponent would damage you too much.
Other ff builds would mean you age up with 500f and ship 700g directly, but imo it's not a viable option.
One last thing : shipping blackriders first after a straight ff is very risky, because it's really slow. Against dops, you would probs lose your tc. I would rather ship 3 ww or 8 skirms, depending on your opponent's units. And if your opponent doesn't push you when you hit fortress, then 1000w would be better anyway, because you will need infrastructures since you didn't ship 700w.


In a ger mirror fortress war, don't make wws. They don't even beat uhlans. The optimal composition is full uhlans + 9 blackriders. Only if your opponent makes dops, you'll need skirms, but dops are bad in age 3 anyway

thanks! i just think german mirror is toooo different from other MUs, but it would be interesting too.
as dopples are too scary and can snare, it will be dangerous to send my dopples out, let's say, kill his tp or houses. so i just train dopples, and stay in base? :hmm: sounds strange. so if he doesnt have rax, for example he starts stable, or even go straight ff: should i send 3 dopples and try to kill him directly, or just cancel my 2nd batch of dopple, and age up too?
another question: what's the better counter to pistoleros?:dry: on some maps, like indochina, he may send the pop card and spam pistols. xbow actually lose to them, and dopples also lose to 10+ pistols: what should i do? send pop card and spam those uncivilized units too?
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China Couprider
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12 Jan 2017, 16:02

Mitoe wrote:This is the one mirror you likely won't find any consensus on. You can make almost any strategy work in German mirror.

yeah. in other mirror MUs, such as french mirror, i can just keep firing in range (with musk/skirm), and try to adapt. however german relies on melee units, and a small mistake will end the game in 10 seconds. That's too violent and scary :sad:
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Canada Mitoe
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12 Jan 2017, 16:05

I think it's a matchup that takes a lot of practice. I didn't start winning them consistently until I had played about 100+ practice games with H2O & Kaiser.

In general if you don't have a deep understanding of the matchup dopp/uhlan works pretty well vs most other strategies.
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China Couprider
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12 Jan 2017, 16:09

Mitoe wrote:I think it's a matchup that takes a lot of practice. I didn't start winning them consistently until I had played about 100+ practice games with H2O & Kaiser.

In general if you don't have a deep understanding of the matchup dopp/uhlan works pretty well vs most other strategies.

you mean the 700w-700g timing? however, uhlan+dopple doesnt beat pure dopple imo. if he has 10 dopple 4 uhlan and you have 10 dopple 10 uhlan it's still a tie :hmm:
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France Kaiserklein
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12 Jan 2017, 16:28

Couprider wrote:thanks! i just think german mirror is toooo different from other MUs, but it would be interesting too.
as dopples are too scary and can snare, it will be dangerous to send my dopples out, let's say, kill his tp or houses. so i just train dopples, and stay in base? :hmm: sounds strange.

Well it's actually quite the opposite. As I said, uhlans can't really snare dops, so you can go out and won't get snared by cav. So unless you're sleeping and don't see when your opponent tries to catch your dops with his own dops, you shouldn't get caught. No reason to stay in base here, unless you're getting rushed and need to defend. Even if he raids you, 2 dops in base should be enough to scare away 5+ uhlans.

Couprider wrote:so if he doesnt have rax, for example he starts stable, or even go straight ff: should i send 3 dopples and try to kill him directly, or just cancel my 2nd batch of dopple, and age up too?

If he starts stable in base, I think dop rush is the way to go, or at least dop timing. If he goes straight ff, I think you should go cav semi, and take control of the tp line and/or idle him. I wouldn't really ever send 3 dops in ger mirror, unless your opponent is under your tc and you can pop them directly in his face, or if you try to break his fb.
If you already started dops and then get surprised by his age up, then yeah I would definitely try to age as well myself, because making more dops once he's already age 3 will be mostly useless.

Couprider wrote:another question: what's the better counter to pistoleros?:dry: on some maps, like indochina, he may send the pop card and spam pistols. xbow actually lose to them, and dopples also lose to 10+ pistols: what should i do? send pop card and spam those uncivilized units too?

Pistoleros are honestly terrible. They're basically musks, and if you look at their stats you might think they're good (80g only, 30 attack, 150 hp. Even 30% melee resists iirc). But they show 2 major drawbacks : first of all, they can't hit and run. How do you beat dopples when you can't hit and run them ? Well, you don't. How do you catch up with xbows hit and running you, when you need 1 second to just shoot at them, and then they're out of range again ? You can't. So those guys will actually lose to both xbows and dops. The second drawback is they get trained really slowly, so you won't mass them really hard.
If you meant the dacoits (those you can indeed train on indochina), they're indeed better than pistoleros, because their stats are better (especially their melee attack is insane). But they still have the same drawbacks as those ones, they won't be that good against dops and/or bows. So if someone train those guys in ger mirror, you should be able to win, regardless of what you do.
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China Couprider
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12 Jan 2017, 17:57

When i have 5 dopples he has 8, and he attacks from two sides :( A massacre happened
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France Kaiserklein
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12 Jan 2017, 18:22

Don't let him trap you, idk. In most cases he shouldn't be able to catch your dops with his dops. You can also bring your explorer to slow down his dops
Great Britain Hazza54321
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12 Jan 2017, 19:09

dont listen to kaiser, just make petard and hand attack?
"i should win"
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Canada Mitoe
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13 Jan 2017, 13:13

Couprider wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I think it's a matchup that takes a lot of practice. I didn't start winning them consistently until I had played about 100+ practice games with H2O & Kaiser.

In general if you don't have a deep understanding of the matchup dopp/uhlan works pretty well vs most other strategies.

you mean the 700w-700g timing? however, uhlan+dopple doesnt beat pure dopple imo. if he has 10 dopple 4 uhlan and you have 10 dopple 10 uhlan it's still a tie :hmm:

The 700w 700g build can be good, but that's not really what I meant :P Although I do think that 10 uhlan and 10 dopps definitely beat 4 uhlans and 10 dopps.

3 SW 700w 700g is pretty safe for the most part in German mirror. You can use the 700g to fuel more units or you can age with it, depending on the situation.
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Brazil macacoalbino
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13 Jan 2017, 15:19

Hazza54321 wrote:dont listen to kaiser, just make petard and hand attack?

Nayuki aproves... :P
"Anything can happen. Just throw all of your points on the underdog (...). They are looking more like overdogs this tournament. Haha. A joke." - GS

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