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India rsy
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18 May 2017, 18:28

Kaiserklein wrote:
pecelot wrote:Fusilier is just a musketeer with additional bonus in range vs light cavalry, has very high base damage and regular ranged-heavy-infantry melee attack. Say whatever you want about them, but not that they are bad anti-cav.


Very high base ranged damage? 70 attack for 300g? No. Same in melee mode, 35 attack for 300g? And only *2 vs cav.
They're a trash anti-cav. They're a very good anti goon, though.

Just go in editor mode, and try fusiliers vs cav, then compare to different kind of musketeers, highlanders, etc. You'll see how much they suck. Add to that the fact they only have 300 hp for 300g, so they're going to get sniped so fucking easily. I mean, 300 hp is basically a vet jan hp, but for 3 times more VS...

From what u say, they sound like a really good raiding unit. Imagine a mid game scenario on high plains with a 3 fusils running around everywhere when opponent is spread out. U literally cannot catch and kill that unit since it is fast enough to avoid skirms and does pretty well vs cav (I guess like an ashi on steroids?) So I guess if ur using it in stand and fight situations u r simply using the unit incorrectly
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France Kaiserklein
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18 May 2017, 18:39

Goons are still goons, and do okay against everything. A good mass of goons will catch a fusiliers raid. And it's same for huss, because as I said fusiliers are a bad anti cav. So it's not that hard to catch it. It's also a really expensive raid, with 300g for each unit... So you can get pushed meanwhile
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Poland pecelot
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18 May 2017, 18:43

I don't really see anyone mentioning the cost- or pop-efficiency. I just didn't agree with the statement that they're a poor anti-cav option. Ever regarding those factors, they still seem to be good musketeer-type units, which is enough to call them decent vs cavalry.
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Hungary Dsy
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18 May 2017, 18:50

My calculator shows fusilier has 42 score cost effectivity meanwhile an age 2 musket has 100...
If you ask me that isnt quiet good. :pop:
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Germany yemshi
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18 May 2017, 18:55

Dsy wrote:My calculator shows fusilier has 42 score cost effectivity meanwhile an age 2 musket has 100...
If you ask me that isnt quiet good. :pop:

Yeah, not all too promising for your calculator indeed.
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No Flag ovi12
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18 May 2017, 18:57

Kaiserklein wrote:
Jjtuxtron wrote:btw, why mercs aren't used in TR?

Because they're age 3 units, and in treaty you're age 5, so mercs become shitty (they don't have guard/imperial upgrades). Plus they don't benefit from most of the homecity cards

Well idk about per cost, but mercs beat imperial units 1v1. I think they might be used if they didn't cost more pop than normal units
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18 May 2017, 19:48

pecelot wrote:I don't really see anyone mentioning the cost- or pop-efficiency. I just didn't agree with the statement that they're a poor anti-cav option. Ever regarding those factors, they still seem to be good musketeer-type units, which is enough to call them decent vs cavalry.
Well, did you read Kaiser's post? How do you still find Fusiliers' stats decent? I just a-moved 15 veteran hussars vs 10 Fusiliers in the scenario editor (same cost resourcewise, 15 huss cost more pop than 10 Fusiliers but they also cost :food: which is less expensive than :coin: ) and there are 9 huss left, all almost full hp :hmm: then I a-moved the Fusiliers against the veteran hussars and there were 4 huss left :hmm:
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18 May 2017, 20:22

ovi12 wrote:
Lukas_L99 wrote:
ovi12 wrote:Do you mean it never gives br + manchu for example?


I think I've had that before

Yeah same


them i'm just wrong :P

i just dont remember that ever happening to me, but i'm not a great saloon user....
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18 May 2017, 20:29

Fusiliers are situational units, and they can be very good against the right things. They are also good at raiding as they counter everything fast enough to catch them.
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Kyrgyzstan AOEisLOVE_AOEisLIFE
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18 May 2017, 20:53

pecelot wrote:What I would experiment more with would be outlaws, as Comancheros or Renegados especially can turn out to be potential game-changers.

i love the german cav-counter build w comancheros in age 2 vs the standard generic 5-10 huss semi FF..i think i saw aiz first doing that dunno..
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18 May 2017, 20:56

P i k i l i c wrote:
pecelot wrote:I don't really see anyone mentioning the cost- or pop-efficiency. I just didn't agree with the statement that they're a poor anti-cav option. Ever regarding those factors, they still seem to be good musketeer-type units, which is enough to call them decent vs cavalry.
Well, did you read Kaiser's post? How do you still find Fusiliers' stats decent? I just a-moved 15 veteran hussars vs 10 Fusiliers in the scenario editor (same cost resourcewise, 15 huss cost more pop than 10 Fusiliers but they also cost :food: which is less expensive than :coin: ) and there are 9 huss left, all almost full hp :hmm: then I a-moved the Fusiliers against the veteran hussars and there were 4 huss left :hmm:

Yes, I read it. I can't really deny the unit is terrible, but one thing it can be good at is combat versus cavalry :idea:
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18 May 2017, 21:33

You can also count hackapells and mamlukes as anti-cav because they are good against other cavalry due to (either) large HP and attack. It should be noted though that because saloon units can be very random you should think up of other strats to deal with cavalry i.e. a manchu shipment as China.
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18 May 2017, 21:48

@pecelot actually, I would say cavalry are units they do the less bad against, I mean imagine highlanders with the same stats but costing 3 times more: I personally wouldn't say "there are good against cav" because imho, cost-effectiveness can't be ignored when you call an unit "good" or "bad"
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18 May 2017, 22:32

JakeyBoyTH wrote:You can also count [...] mamlukes as anti-cav because

I wouldn't say so, they have 40% RR for a reason :!:

@P i k i l i c , I meant that regardless of their overall strength, their main advantage is most likely the anti-cavalry damage. :smile:
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18 May 2017, 22:50

I think some saloon units are good for their cost, like wokou pirate/swordsman. Also the wokou junk and catamarans.
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19 May 2017, 00:01

pecelot wrote:
JakeyBoyTH wrote:You can also count [...] mamlukes as anti-cav because

I wouldn't say so, they have 40% RR for a reason :!:

@P i k i l i c , I meant that regardless of their overall strength, their main advantage is most likely the anti-cavalry damage. :smile:


Hackapells are super-uhlans. Uhlans are good vs other cavalry because they can be massed easily and have a skirmisher principle. :!:

Mams just tank like nothing else. :!:

This is of course not a 1v1 per-unit situation as well. Mercs are meant to be combined with other units. :!:

[EDIT] :!:
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Venezuela Hazza54321
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19 May 2017, 02:04

Fk all of you, fusilier raids are fun
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19 May 2017, 14:19

noissance wrote:Renegado rush works amazing vs lieutenants and master sgts


It can consistently beat captains too.
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European Union bwinner1
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19 May 2017, 14:51

greatscythe11 wrote:Unfortunately I couldn't load the tables as I had intended so for now I'm making do with attaching the analysis.Basically I tried to analyze whether the Saloon can be considered as an anticav building because of the types of mercenaries that are available. Please feel free to share your opinion.If the math feels cumbersome(the community consists of talented people from non math or non science backgrounds as well), ignore it and just note the percentages.On the other hand if maths is right up your alley, please do me a favor by checking it.Hopefully everyone interested in mercenaries will join.

Maths are ok, but there is no need to use combination here, just use a three. I mean your 1rst calcul for example can be done like that : 1-9*8/(16*15)=0.7 (because for the 1st mercenary you have 9 over 16 good choice and 8 over 15 for the 2nd).

What I find interressant here is that we can also calculate the probability to have one good mercenary at least. I mean : Hackapell, Stradiot, Black Rider, Manchu, Highlander, swiss pikemen and Jaeger. Because the other are age 4 or bad. That make 7, exactly like the number of anticav-merc. So the probability of having one of them is 0.73 too (considering your error with blind monk). I conclude that the kaiser's build is viable :smile:
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No Flag greatscythe11
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19 May 2017, 15:19

Thanks for checking bro.I find the combination thing easier to understand like 36 non anticav pairs over 120 total pairs or 28 useless pairs over 105 total pairs(blind monk excluded). :smile:

EDIT: OK , so , I've checked the mercs in Indo China offline and there are 49 hits out of 64 or 76.6% for the useful mercs as you said. It's very close to 75% or 3 hits out of 4 getting one of the useful mercs(Oh, and there was a BR+Manchu pair as someone mentioned)
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No Flag ovi12
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19 May 2017, 16:12

bwinner1 wrote:
greatscythe11 wrote:Unfortunately I couldn't load the tables as I had intended so for now I'm making do with attaching the analysis.Basically I tried to analyze whether the Saloon can be considered as an anticav building because of the types of mercenaries that are available. Please feel free to share your opinion.If the math feels cumbersome(the community consists of talented people from non math or non science backgrounds as well), ignore it and just note the percentages.On the other hand if maths is right up your alley, please do me a favor by checking it.Hopefully everyone interested in mercenaries will join.

Maths are ok, but there is no need to use combination here, just use a three. I mean your 1rst calcul for example can be done like that : 1-9*8/(16*15)=0.7 (because for the 1st mercenary you have 9 over 16 good choice and 8 over 15 for the 2nd).

What I find interressant here is that we can also calculate the probability to have one good mercenary at least. I mean : Hackapell, Stradiot, Black Rider, Manchu, Highlander, swiss pikemen and Jaeger. Because the other are age 4 or bad. That make 7, exactly like the number of anticav-merc. So the probability of having one of them is 0.73 too (considering your error with blind monk). I conclude that the kaiser's build is viable :smile:

Well you did instead permutations, 1-P(9, 2)/P(16,2) :smile:
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