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Netherlands Jerom
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15 Jun 2017, 11:42

Rikikipu wrote:First, I think that there are 2 clients here : the players and the spectators, and we need to try to satisfy both of them.
I don't think the level of games were worst than before, however I agree they become stale. We are eating since end of 2015 semi-FF or nr 10 games. Why that ?

  • I take the responsability for the maps diversity. Maps are not as unique as the RE ones. Think about Silk Road, Ceylon, Regicide Honshu, etc. That's one of the reason I want to remove Manchac for instance. There is btw the possibility to remove maps and have seasonal maps like in some other games. We currently have 27 esoc maps. Maybe 15-20 would be enough for an event. Moreover, I gonna try to release maps that are more unique and provide a different gameplay because right now most of maps fully support semi-FF confort zone for players.

I think the civ rules is cool for main events, but we can try it in a small one to see how it goes.

I think this is actually just a bad idea. Theres way too few standard maps. Yes unique maps are fun and should exist, but right now a map like Malysia, or even no TP maps, maps like indonesia, tibet, cascade range, you name it, those maps don't actually represent balance. The game right now is balanced around maps like Kamchatka, Arkansas and Hudson Bay. Having only maps like that is boring, but right now we have more non standard maps than standard maps. You can refer to Ceylon and honshu but the fact of the matter is that on RE people also don't actually bother to play more than a handful of standard maps.

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15 Jun 2017, 11:55

Jerom wrote:Mappool wise I think its fine for tournaments but as a random map pool the maps are too all over the place. If you wanna seriously play a mu you sometimes just have to rehost a few times or pick a map. For a tournament off maps are fine but they sometimes give unfair advantages in terms of civ picking (look for example at how impossible it was for bsop to counter raphas aztec pick on indonesia).


Maybe a "standard EP maps" (probably named differently because of the existence of standard maps) map set could be good. With like the standard TP maps in it (Kamchatka, Manchuria, Hudson, Arkansas etc.).
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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15 Jun 2017, 11:58

About the maps: Generally I think there is too much variance when it comes to resource balance. This should be more of a constant, with a few exceptions but not too many, as it has a major effect on civ balance.
Maps should differ not (rather not as much) by having more or less resources than each other, but by being designed differently. For example Tibet and Kamchatka, even if they had the same amount of hunts and mines, would still be very different maps where different civs and different strategies are viable.
But there is a lot of (passionate) disagreement about this and in the end, the map makers decide because they are the ones doing the work.
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Netherlands edeholland
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15 Jun 2017, 12:24

Goodspeed wrote:When it comes to the maps, generally I think there is too much variance when it comes to resource balance. This should be more of a constant, with a few exceptions but not too many, as it has a major effect on civ balance.
Maps should differ not (rather not as much) by having more or less resources than each other, but by being designed differently. For example Tibet and Kamchatka, even if they had the same amount of hunts and mines, would still be very different maps where different civs and different strategies are viable.
But there is a lot of (passionate) disagreement about this and in the end, the map makers decide because they are the ones doing the work.

Your rank says Ex-contributor but I still think you contribute more than the regular here :sad:

I think I agree with your statement. Picking civs is often decided because of how much food or gold is nearby, instead of what strategic advantage a certain map brings.
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Italy Garja
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15 Jun 2017, 12:42

The amount of resources is what makes different cards and hence different builds/strat viable. It does give advantage/disavantage to some civs since cards are not the same, nor is shipment rate, etc.
It's just another element of diversity. And by the way ESOC maps already narrowed the range of map charateristics a lot compared to RE patch.
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15 Jun 2017, 14:21

Jerom wrote:Mappool wise I think its fine for tournaments but as a random map pool the maps are too all over the place. If you wanna seriously play a mu you sometimes just have to rehost a few times or pick a map. For a tournament off maps are fine but they sometimes give unfair advantages in terms of civ picking (look for example at how impossible it was for bsop to counter raphas aztec pick on indonesia).

I have created a custom map set called "good ESOC maps 1v1 X.0" which has around 10 or 12 of the best ESOC maps. If you want the file, just pm me and I would be more than happy to send it to you. It is the only random set I use on EP.
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France Rikikipu
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15 Jun 2017, 23:38

Darwin_ wrote:
Jerom wrote:Mappool wise I think its fine for tournaments but as a random map pool the maps are too all over the place. If you wanna seriously play a mu you sometimes just have to rehost a few times or pick a map. For a tournament off maps are fine but they sometimes give unfair advantages in terms of civ picking (look for example at how impossible it was for bsop to counter raphas aztec pick on indonesia).

I have created a custom map set called "good ESOC maps 1v1 X.0" which has around 10 or 12 of the best ESOC maps. If you want the file, just pm me and I would be more than happy to send it to you. It is the only random set I use on EP.

Lol
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16 Jun 2017, 01:52

Rikikipu wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
Jerom wrote:Mappool wise I think its fine for tournaments but as a random map pool the maps are too all over the place. If you wanna seriously play a mu you sometimes just have to rehost a few times or pick a map. For a tournament off maps are fine but they sometimes give unfair advantages in terms of civ picking (look for example at how impossible it was for bsop to counter raphas aztec pick on indonesia).

I have created a custom map set called "good ESOC maps 1v1 X.0" which has around 10 or 12 of the best ESOC maps. If you want the file, just pm me and I would be more than happy to send it to you. It is the only random set I use on EP.

Lol

why lol? The current set is IMO too big and with too much variance between the styles and, I hate to say it, quality of maps. The set I made just reduces the total number of maps and weeds out ones with spawn inconsistencies or other issues (player preference).
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France Rikikipu
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16 Jun 2017, 02:05

Ok. Just for curiosity, what are the maps in the "1v1 ESOC Good maps" set ?
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16 Jun 2017, 02:45

<map>ESOC Arizona</map>
<map>ESOC Arkansas</map>
<map>ESOC Adirondacks</map>
<map>ESOC Baja California</map>
<map>ESOC Mendocino</map>
<map>ESOC Colorado</map>
<map>ESOC High Plains</map>
<map>ESOC Hudson Bay</map>
<map>ESOC Kamchatka</map>
<map>ESOC Manchuria</map>
<map>ESOC Florida</map>
</randomMaps>
@Rikikipu
florida has been a little inconsistent for me lately so I might replace it with fertile crescent. I might also remove baja but idk I like that map but a lot of the people I play with dont like it too much.t
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16 Jun 2017, 16:11

lemmings121 wrote:Esoc events are just great, its whats keeps me and a lot of people still on the game, if it was only ladder qs, I believe the game would be nearly dead by now. So i have to thank you guys for the effort :smile:

About maps:
Map veto is good imo, forcing people to play water is annoying, having only standard maps is too. this way a pool can have a few non standard maps, and is up to the players decided if they want to play them or not.

We could have a few RE maps in tho, maps like NE and Yucatan are good, maybe a small rework to make spawns more consistent. They aren't super standard so that might bring some variety to the game without adding new stuff that people would have to learn.

Future events:
Regional tournaments: there was even a recent thread by umeu where some nice ideas popped. everyone could signup, after signups close split people in 16 groups, Brazil, Latin america, USA, china a few euro groups (preferably with same or very near timezone) etc. then we could have a group stage where everyone plays everyone in their group (might give 3 points for win and 1 for a lost, just to incentivise people to play. Since there is no timezone nor language barrier, scheduling should be easier), the one with most points in each group goes to a single elimination bracket. Might give max 2 weeks for all groups games to happen, so it doesn't goes on for too long.

Another idea for a single day (or other short format to be defined): single civ tournament. You choose your civ on signup and play only that one. lets see which are the most versatile civs! (will kaiser beat all civs with german? can tit get a good run with his india being unable to change his civ vs aztec or french? will bsop just jan abus his way to the win?)(and also, see different matchups happening, since no counterpick! enough brit vs russia! )

other ideas:
Nekoberk mentioned a medal system. That could be fun, give small badges (I mean small, like the current flags) for people doing useful stuff for the community. examples: "uploaded more then 'x' self record games"; "casted more then 'x' games"; "played in 'x' event";
could also give a icon representing the best result the player had in a esoc main event (2nd place, top 16, top 128, anything, just to people have something to look for, incentivising people to actually play the main event even if they are not 35+ "hah! this season i'll get that top 64 medal!"


So, I'm not really gonna read through all the posts but I pretty much agree with everything lammings said in this post...

Imo map veto is a good thing for tournaments it brings more depth and strategy to the game. I don't see it as a limiting factor to what kinds of map are going to be played.
People seem to be urging for more non-standard maps, so if a map pool has for example 2 vetos and 3 non-standard theres going to be at least one non-standard map. And maybe a strategy for a player would be to practice the non-standard while vetoing a map like arkansas to try and throw their opponent off. So I like how this mechaninc works.
My only take on it would be to change its rules a little. Imo the veto should be issued right before the game starts - if there's a reason to make it in advance pls let me know. Also maybe consider giving players at least 2 vetos every round, adding more to the civ picking strategies and map choices.

:!: Btw, I wonder if we could see a small event that would use the Smackdown civ rules. :!:

One more point i'd like to touch is the ammount of big events. I agree with the people who say that they should be reduced. When Esoc was starting it made a lot of sense to make a lot of big tourneys, just because the AoE community seemed to be a little dead. As of right now, I think the community developed lots of content that can fill the gaps between big tourneys (which we didn't have before apart from smackdown).

To end the post I'd also suggest that these filler events would have different rules, map pools, and all sorts of variety so that you can use the experience and feedbacks acquired on them to make the main events even better.

It's great to see the direction the community is going, and I hope you keep improving it everyday! Thanks for giving us this space for sharing our opinions! Peace! :chinese: :pop:
"Anything can happen. Just throw all of your points on the underdog (...). They are looking more like overdogs this tournament. Haha. A joke." - GS

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Norway iwillspankyou
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16 Jun 2017, 17:09

actually feed back is mostly: nice tournament, nice casters, nice job over all, I love you guys for doing this for the entertainment for us all :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers:
I dont always agree on all the decisions you make, but overall - I have to say: super job :P
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Poland pecelot
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16 Jun 2017, 19:32

macacoalbino wrote:My only take on it would be to change its rules a little. Imo the veto should be issued right before the game starts - if there's a reason to make it in advance pls let me know. Also maybe consider giving players at least 2 vetos every round, adding more to the civ picking strategies and map choices.

Maybe you could give a reason why it should be changed? :hmm:
2 vetoes per round is present in further stages of the tournament already.
My Tips of the Day and COMPSTOMP threads! Check out the ESOC Strategy Wall! :flowers:
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Brazil lemmings121
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16 Jun 2017, 20:13

pecelot wrote:
macacoalbino wrote:My only take on it would be to change its rules a little. Imo the veto should be issued right before the game starts - if there's a reason to make it in advance pls let me know. Also maybe consider giving players at least 2 vetos every round, adding more to the civ picking strategies and map choices.

Maybe you could give a reason why it should be changed? :hmm:
2 vetoes per round is present in further stages of the tournament already.


Think the idea is that you have to prepare for everything, like on starcraft where players do their vetos just before the match. But im not really sure if thats better or not. I like that players can think specific map strats and show refined stuff on tournament.
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16 Jun 2017, 21:55

pecelot wrote:
macacoalbino wrote:My only take on it would be to change its rules a little. Imo the veto should be issued right before the game starts - if there's a reason to make it in advance pls let me know. Also maybe consider giving players at least 2 vetos every round, adding more to the civ picking strategies and map choices.

Maybe you could give a reason why it should be changed? :hmm:
2 vetoes per round is present in further stages of the tournament already.


i explained the 2x veto already, but I can say it again for you... I just think it adds to the civ picking aspect, since you can try to force certain styles out of opponents who arent as confortable on them for example...
Also submitting a veto by Thursday doesn't work as intended (having both players vetoing in advance) so that might be worth changing as well... And I don't see much reason not to veto in the day of the match (right before it starts)
"Anything can happen. Just throw all of your points on the underdog (...). They are looking more like overdogs this tournament. Haha. A joke." - GS

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17 Jun 2017, 00:31

I can say it again, too. I'm pretty content with current system, 2 vetoes in a 5-map pool seems to be overdoing it. Though I get the idea.
It's mainly players' fault. From what I can tell it means a lot to know the maps in advance, especially with something extraordinary is on the first places on the list. You prepare differently to Indonesia and High Plains, right? I'm not sure how it works in SC2, but honestly, I can't find a reason for such a change in our regular tournament settings.
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17 Jun 2017, 00:58

pecelot wrote:I can say it again, too. I'm pretty content with current system, 2 vetoes in a 5-map pool seems to be overdoing it. Though I get the idea.
It's mainly players' fault. From what I can tell it means a lot to know the maps in advance, especially with something extraordinary is on the first places on the list. You prepare differently to Indonesia and High Plains, right? I'm not sure how it works in SC2, but honestly, I can't find a reason for such a change in our regular tournament settings.

players veto maps right before the game starts. THo map vetoing isnt that big of a deal there. First of all you know exactly what race a player is going to play and both player know exactly which maps are good for which race. ALso all maps are complete mirrors theres no randomness and while a map may favour one race its still very winnable for the other 2 races. AOe on the other hand has random factors in the maps and they also have features like tps and water play that significantly change balance, so yeah vetoing 1 or 2 days before the matches are being played is logical.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Poland pecelot
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17 Jun 2017, 03:02

That's what I assumed and that's what I would conclude — thanks for clarifying! :smile:
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18 Jun 2017, 21:42

lordraphael wrote:players veto maps right before the game starts. THo map vetoing isnt that big of a deal there. First of all you know exactly what race a player is going to play and both player know exactly which maps are good for which race. ALso all maps are complete mirrors theres no randomness and while a map may favour one race its still very winnable for the other 2 races. AOe on the other hand has random factors in the maps and they also have features like tps and water play that significantly change balance, so yeah vetoing 1 or 2 days before the matches are being played is logical.


Maybe even civ picks should be done at map veto time (at least for like Ro8 onwards). Would provide some clarity for players and remove a bunch of lobby time for players and spectators alike.

Downsides obviously that it would benefit whoever has a lot of time to practice the specific matchups in the few days between civ selections and the match, and that the civ pick rules would need to be changed somehow (as we don't know in advance who would win g1). I suppose loss of "what is player x gonna pick" stuff during the stream could plausibly be viewed as a downside but it seems minor to me.
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19 Jun 2017, 03:13

Wont work because unlike map vetoes, with civ picks no one has to go first.
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Poland pecelot
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19 Jun 2017, 05:42

Plus you can sometimes change the order of the civs you're using based on given circumstances.
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