What should be done to TP Spain?

Revert to RE - Lancers back to X4 and missionaries cost pop
6
18%
Leave as is
8
24%
Don't revert to RE but buff
5
15%
Don't revert to RE but nerf
2
6%
Who cares it's treaty
13
38%
 
Total votes: 34

United States of America dicktator_
Lancer
Posts: 543

13 Sep 2017, 19:02

The changes to Spain on the Treaty Patch have been a controversial subject ever since their inception. Once the Time2Treaty tournament is over, we are going to push for a new TP iteration in time for the 1v1 tournament, and we already have changes lined up for Otto (buff), Sioux (nerf), China (export revert), and Japan (slight nerf). I thought it would also be a good time to make a poll to see how people feel about what should be done to TP Spain.
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Poland pecelot
ESOC Community Team
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ESO: Pezet
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13 Sep 2017, 19:30

It'd be nice to bring the changes here so that everyone is perfectly familiarised with them :flowers:

Spanish

Spain can now age to 3 with fast age, age to 4 with 1k coin
Missionaries no longer cost population
Lancers now have a 0.5x multiplier vs Heavy infantry (Fully Upgraded Lancers now have x4 vs Long Range Infantry and x2 vs Heavy Infantry (from x4 vs long ranged/heavy infantry))


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DFU ... tE_4VgMG_A
My Tips of the Day and COMPSTOMP threads! Be sure to check out the ESOC Strategy Wall! :flowers:
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New Zealand NyxAchlys9
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Posts: 249
ESO: _FluXx
Location: Nouvelle-Zélande

13 Sep 2017, 19:39

I really liked the 400w age up option because it meant i could go straight to industrial after 1 min or so and get the facts. Fast age-up is probably better though and i'm not used to it!
With cabrellos wouldn't it be 1.5x Heavy Infantry because the card adds x1?
alright - bed time for me - and let's hope we won't have to deal with any drama first thing tomorrow... - Hleung 2017 :hmm: :mad:
United States of America dicktator_
Lancer
Posts: 543

13 Sep 2017, 19:48

pecelot wrote:It'd be nice to bring the changes here so that everyone is perfectly familiarised with them :flowers:

Spanish

Spain can now age to 3 with fast age, age to 4 with 1k coin
Missionaries no longer cost population
Lancers now have a 0.5x multiplier vs Heavy infantry (Fully Upgraded Lancers now have x4 vs Long Range Infantry and x2 vs Heavy Infantry (from x4 vs long ranged/heavy infantry))


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DFU ... tE_4VgMG_A

My bad thanks. To be clear I'm not talking about reverting the (fairly insignificant) eco buffs, just the lancer nerf and the missionary pop change.
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Germany queenofdestiny
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Posts: 494
ESO: QueenOfdestiny

13 Sep 2017, 19:49

GIVE ME MY SPAIN BACK :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Great Britain Hazza54321
Jaeger
Posts: 3248

13 Sep 2017, 20:05

delete on both patches
PutThePastInACasket : some say the universe is even bigger than the space between the starting TC and second hunt on fertile crescent
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New Zealand NyxAchlys9
Dragoon
Posts: 249
ESO: _FluXx
Location: Nouvelle-Zélande

13 Sep 2017, 20:05

Hazza54321 wrote:delete on both patches

Big pro no counter
alright - bed time for me - and let's hope we won't have to deal with any drama first thing tomorrow... - Hleung 2017 :hmm: :mad:
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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Donator 02
Posts: 985

13 Sep 2017, 20:09

Both versions arent great, but I prefer tp one in the current civ balance. RE one might be worse vs some of the buffed civs compared to tp one
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India guyshir
Crossbow
Posts: 30
ESO: guyshir
Location: Chicago

13 Sep 2017, 20:33

Don't nerf lancers from current patch as they are the only reason to play spain. Skirms don't have any card for better stats.
Eco (buff) and missionary pop will be a significant change.
United States of America dicktator_
Lancer
Posts: 543

14 Sep 2017, 00:16

Gichtenlord wrote:Both versions arent great, but I prefer tp one in the current civ balance. RE one might be worse vs some of the buffed civs compared to tp one

That's a good point. RE Spain wouldn't have a prayer against x2 training card Germany.
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United States of America sc
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Location: MN, USA

14 Sep 2017, 00:44

@lalakisbp
VIRTZN and CM1993 are my friends and they never cheat. everyone should add them. kappa
Austria Foire421
Musketeer
Posts: 73
ESO: foire421

14 Sep 2017, 09:49

My Problem with patch spain is, that it is just another civ where u mostly just gonna gonna skirm art which we already have quite often. The spain theme is meant to be op mele units and op push but very fragile eco, i feel like this got lost a little bit. all you do now is mass skirms, spam nats and do canons and yea.... then i can play french or germany too. i feel like the uniqueness of the civ just got lost. and to the argument "spam civ, no skill": a bad played spain will just go eco dead in 10 mins and do pretty much nothing(if both are similar skill lvl).
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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Posts: 985

14 Sep 2017, 10:20

Melee units are really hard to balance, especially lancers with their "symbolic" 2 hits to kill a huaminca.
If we reverted spain changes to RE and give them another buff towards melee units, there would just be more extreme differences in their civ balance. You would see them either get completely destroyed by a civ without any chance and on the other side, they will completely dominate other civs with ease.
I think that the current "allround" approach was good, because it tried to give spain more possibilities to play different styles. Obviously, the more focused approach on skirms and artillery is better than a melee composition atm.
Question is: Was RE spain actually good? I dont think so. Atleast in team games. I think that during the RE times, there were just less people who actually knew how to play vs spain. Now, on TP, I believe that there are more players who are able to play vs spain well.
Austria Foire421
Musketeer
Posts: 73
ESO: foire421

14 Sep 2017, 14:58

Gichtenlord wrote:Question is: Was RE spain actually good? I dont think so. Atleast in team games. I think that during the RE times, there were just less people who actually knew how to play vs spain. Now, on TP, I believe that there are more players who are able to play vs spain well.


i think it was actually good(unless in laggy games). In skill wise even matches it was as balanced as ger or brit. And why do you think on TP are more players that know how to play vs them? :hmm:
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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14 Sep 2017, 15:05

Foire421 wrote:
Gichtenlord wrote:Question is: Was RE spain actually good? I dont think so. Atleast in team games. I think that during the RE times, there were just less people who actually knew how to play vs spain. Now, on TP, I believe that there are more players who are able to play vs spain well.


i think it was actually good(unless in laggy games). In skill wise even matches it was as balanced as ger or brit. And why do you think on TP are more players that know how to play vs them? :hmm:

Ger and brit are supposed to have like 90% winrate vs spain at a certain level (on RE)
Basically, people know how to play vs spain better nowadays, because of streams and more experience. People back in time considered spain to be strong, because they just simply didnt know how to play against them.
Austria Foire421
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Posts: 73
ESO: foire421

14 Sep 2017, 15:17

Gichtenlord wrote:
Foire421 wrote:
Gichtenlord wrote:Question is: Was RE spain actually good? I dont think so. Atleast in team games. I think that during the RE times, there were just less people who actually knew how to play vs spain. Now, on TP, I believe that there are more players who are able to play vs spain well.


i think it was actually good(unless in laggy games). In skill wise even matches it was as balanced as ger or brit. And why do you think on TP are more players that know how to play vs them? :hmm:

Ger and brit are supposed to have like 90% winrate vs spain at a certain level (on RE)
Basically, people know how to play vs spain better nowadays, because of streams and more experience. People back in time considered spain to be strong, because they just simply didnt know how to play against them.


90% is too much imo. 60/40 in favour of brits/ger is what i would say (not knowing how RE spain would do on patch) and that is what we can call balanced in this game i would say.
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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Posts: 985

14 Sep 2017, 15:20

Foire421 wrote:
Gichtenlord wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Ger and brit are supposed to have like 90% winrate vs spain at a certain level (on RE)
Basically, people know how to play vs spain better nowadays, because of streams and more experience. People back in time considered spain to be strong, because they just simply didnt know how to play against them.


90% is too much imo. 60/40 in favour of brits/ger is what i would say (not knowing how RE spain would do on patch) and that is what we can call balanced in this game i would say.

Nah, you arent supposed to lose. Only by map screws. You can just methodically play the match up and get a safe win.
Ger just kills as many vills until their military is as strong as spains and then has economy advantage and brit muskets > lancers
United States of America dicktator_
Lancer
Posts: 543

14 Sep 2017, 15:26

Foire421 wrote:
Gichtenlord wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Ger and brit are supposed to have like 90% winrate vs spain at a certain level (on RE)
Basically, people know how to play vs spain better nowadays, because of streams and more experience. People back in time considered spain to be strong, because they just simply didnt know how to play against them.


90% is too much imo. 60/40 in favour of brits/ger is what i would say (not knowing how RE spain would do on patch) and that is what we can call balanced in this game i would say.

Gich is talking about high lvl.
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Austria Foire421
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Posts: 73
ESO: foire421

14 Sep 2017, 15:40

dicktator_ wrote:
Foire421 wrote:
Show hidden quotes


90% is too much imo. 60/40 in favour of brits/ger is what i would say (not knowing how RE spain would do on patch) and that is what we can call balanced in this game i would say.

Gich is talking about high lvl.


thanks i got that. i still do not think spain is as bad as gicht says it is. i said spain might loose 60% of high lvl games. They dont loose 90% of the games no matter which level. and civ having a 40/60 winrate at top lvl is still balanced for aoe standards in my opinion. and i think RE spain would just give an actual reason to play spain again. as it is now i might as well play french or germans that are both better options i feel.
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Germany aligator92
Dragoon
Posts: 425
ESO: aligator92

14 Sep 2017, 17:49

I was utterly confused by none of the first 4 choices having anything to do wth tradingposts. Thank god for fifth option :D
Germany FloKo83 Aoe3
Musketeer
Posts: 57

14 Sep 2017, 17:56

i think atm on tp spain beats germans 55-45, loses to brit 30-70, loses to france 40-60 and with RE spain i'm not sure
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Germany Lukas_L99
Lancer
Posts: 589
ESO: Lukas_L99

14 Sep 2017, 18:17

RE Spain is more one-dimensional and worse overall, but maybe a little more fun to play cause you can just spam lancers.
Austria Foire421
Musketeer
Posts: 73
ESO: foire421

14 Sep 2017, 19:03

Lukas_L99 wrote:RE Spain is more one-dimensional and worse overall, but maybe a little more fun to play cause you can just spam lancers.


why one dimensional? u still can go skirm art if you feel like it. and yea its the fun part that hurt me the most^^
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Germany Lukas_L99
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Posts: 589
ESO: Lukas_L99

14 Sep 2017, 19:19

Foire421 wrote:
Lukas_L99 wrote:RE Spain is more one-dimensional and worse overall, but maybe a little more fun to play cause you can just spam lancers.


why one dimensional? u still can go skirm art if you feel like it. and yea its the fun part that hurt me the most^^


Cause with 10 less pop and a worse eco skirm/art-heavy isn't as good
Austria Foire421
Musketeer
Posts: 73
ESO: foire421

14 Sep 2017, 21:29

Lukas_L99 wrote:
Foire421 wrote:
Lukas_L99 wrote:RE Spain is more one-dimensional and worse overall, but maybe a little more fun to play cause you can just spam lancers.


why one dimensional? u still can go skirm art if you feel like it. and yea its the fun part that hurt me the most^^


Cause with 10 less pop and a worse eco skirm/art-heavy isn't as good


ofc its not that good but you can still do it

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