User avatar
Switzerland sebnan12
Howdah
Posts: 1107
ESO: Mongobillione
Location: Switzerland

14 Nov 2017, 19:14

Vinyanenya wrote:@Hazza54321 thoughts on spanish/ports?

they both stand. he just didnt change the font of the civ names
BAE
User avatar
Bavaria Gichtenlord
Howdah
Donator 02
Posts: 1107

14 Nov 2017, 19:29

Vinyanenya wrote:@Hazza54321 thoughts on spanish/ports?

EP Ports EleGiggle
r]
User avatar
United States of America Darwin_
Howdah
Posts: 1234
ESO: Anonymous_01
Location: United States

15 Nov 2017, 17:06

(all the civs I don't mention I haven't played enough on the patch for me to think it right to give an opinion)
Aztec: strong
Azzy are probably the best rush civ still remaining, and probably the only civ with viable aggressive play vs. semi's
British: Op as fuck
Way too good. Insane XP and resource income early game and super strong military to maintain map control. Ideas: buff aggressive civs or increase manor cost/reduce manor build XP
Dutch: OP as fuck
Same case as brits. Ideas: reduce bank limit to 4 or buff aggressive civs.
France: strong
I would say that even though france is a little on the strong side, it should be the model for future civ balancing. Ideas: probably nothing, but more nerfs to cuirs late game would be nice (colonial base stats would be a good tweak)
Germany: a little weak
Germany is a tough nut to crack because how strong they are is so dependent on a starting TP. Currently they are a little weak. Ideas: keep the dopp buff, but revert the Uhlan nerf and also reduce the number of uhlans with fortress shipments to 2, and make 3 settler wagons only come with 1 or maybe even 0.
Japan: weak/strong
Crapshoot in a lot of matchups, but generally OK. I dislike the way of the bow nerf as it is a pretty ugly solution to a simple problem. My ideas: revert all direct changes made thus far, and instead make the golden pavilion affect base stats (instead of upgraded), and give them an extra food crate at the start. Maybe also nerf yumi attack card to 15% too.
India: weak/strong
In three changes, I think that while kind of hyperbolic, it is not completely inaccurate to say that the EP turned India's meta on its head. Rushes (even consulate rush from what I have seen/heard), are not that strong anymore, while passive play is a fair bit stronger (which is also due to the nerfs to otto and germany, two of their bigger counters). Ideas: revert all changes except for 50w houses, and then give them an extra food crate and have the agra give nothing upon age up. Also maybe buff base gurkha range to 19, and get rid of the exalted upgrades range boost.
Iroquois: Weak
Pretty weak in general, though comparatively they are a little bit stronger than last patch to the other civs. Ideas: +1 starting villager and/or move the first food gathering upgrade at the farm to the market, maybe the second one too.
Sioux: Balanced
Never thought I would say this but sioux is in a fairly decent spot balance wise. Personally, I do think that their colonial compositions are still broken (in a bad way), and a buff to cetans and war clubs could be nice (could just make them exactly like aenna and pikemen/sohei). Ideas: Buff mustangs card to -15% cavalry cost and train time (from -10%), and maybe buff rifle rider's HP a bit while reducing their RoF to 1.75 (from 1.5), and make cetan stats the same as crossbowmen (including fire animation time), and increase war club siege attack to 35-40.
Russia: Very weak.
Russia is probably one of the weaker civs right now as most of their counters didn't really get nerfed (dopp buff for ger actually helps a bit in this mu from my experience). Ideas: +1 starting villager, -1 food crate, change 5 cossacks to infinite 4, and maybe nerf boyars to 10% if it's needed. I think also a reduction in veteran upgrade cost for russia's units could be nice (could just be a nice change in general for all civs tbh)
Hazza54321 wrote:Holy fuck an autobiography
User avatar
European Union bwinner1
Dragoon
Posts: 296

15 Nov 2017, 18:33

@Darwin_
I like your global vue on this (Though I think brit isn't that good and sioux/russian aren't that bad). I like many of your ideas of future changes (especially Brit/Dutch/France/Ger exept for 3sw/India exept for 19 ranged gurka)

Though I have some questions/remarks :
Can you developpe about the way of yumi change ?
I like gurka's design : They have better stats than skirm exept 1 less range, which means they loose when hit and run by skirm but win when standing fight, why do you want to break this mechanism ?
Same remark for Iroquois : Their farm upgrades is kinda unique and is also a reason for them to get the firepit because their farm are cheap with it, I don't like to change it
For sioux, I would like to see a change on wakina, rather than on rifl riders because rilf riders are balanced Imo, and I still don't get the wakina's speed change which I would like to be reverted (you just can't catch them now, and why would they need this change ?) Rather buff age 2 like you said.

Thanks a lot for detailled answer, anyway (same for @Hazza54321 even though I totally disagree with most of your ansswer contend)

A last remark about my personnal vue of the current balance : I strongly disagree with people saying ottomans is trash now just because of jan's change. I said a change, because that's not even really a nerf : They are still as good as befor, there is just a litte problem because 5 of them is less than before, so it's like producing less with one rax
But the Church change is buff for ottto, and is actually OP on 400w start/good for no TP maps. So to be fair I think otto are stronger than befor, and at least I am sure they aren't trash.
User avatar
Austria KINGofOsmane
Jaeger
Posts: 2521
ESO: KINGofOsmane
Location: Walling Town

15 Nov 2017, 18:36

show me ur 3tc otto boom must be gud since 500w tc
Image

VaneStoilov: the difference between aztec and otto is that with aztec you make vills
User avatar
European Union bwinner1
Dragoon
Posts: 296

15 Nov 2017, 18:48

KINGofOsmane wrote:show me ur 3tc otto boom must be gud since 500w tc

Not sure what you are talking about...
I can't remember having made this start with you ? I tried it only once vs lordraph and got rekt, but well I am not even sure this can't work in some particular situation
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Dragoon
Posts: 209
ESO: gamevideo112

15 Nov 2017, 19:34

Random ideas (some of these have already been suggested) from looking at the poll's results:

British: Nerf manor xp or increase their cost

Dutch: Nerf bank xp

Germans: Revert uhlan nerf, reduce by 1 the number of free uhlans per shipment (1 in colo, 2 in fort, 3 in ind), remove the xp penalty for shipments or reduce it to 5%.

Ottoman: Revert abus nerf, reduce abus damage from 40 to 34, 5 jan shipment buffed to 6 jan shipment.

Iroquois: Oneida support cost reduced to 750c (10vills+tc wagon), buff colonial gold and wood crates to 700.

Japanese: Revert way of the bow nerf, reduce yumi attack from 19 to 18. Maybe change crate start?
User avatar
United States of America Darwin_
Howdah
Posts: 1234
ESO: Anonymous_01
Location: United States

15 Nov 2017, 20:21

bwinner1 wrote:@Darwin_
I like your global vue on this (Though I think brit isn't that good and sioux/russian aren't that bad). I like many of your ideas of future changes (especially Brit/Dutch/France/Ger exept for 3sw/India exept for 19 ranged gurka)

Though I have some questions/remarks :
Can you developpe about the way of yumi change ?
So my issue with the way of the bow nerf is that it makes that card really quite useless, and doesn't get to the root of the issue at hand (OP yumi scaling), two things which I greatly dislike. Changing the golden pavilion on the other hand would directly get to the root of the problem (nerfing yumi scaling in age 3), and still leave way of the bow a practical card. Additionally, as the golden pavilion would not be quite as good, though still quite strong, it might open up different options for age 3 wonders (maybe shogunate or torii gates).
I like gurka's design : They have better stats than skirm exept 1 less range, which means they loose when hit and run by skirm but win when standing fight, why do you want to break this mechanism ?
you definitely have a good point here, and I admit I kinda just through that idea in off the top of my head. Maybe just give them 19 range in colonial and fortress, and then 20 in indus and 21 in imp. My reasoning for wanting them to have greater range in age 2 is just because India is clearly designed to be a civ that can play while being an age behind, and I think buffs to their pseudo-fortress late age 2 might be better than buffing their early age 3, if you get what I mean.
Same remark for Iroquois : Their farm upgrades is kinda unique and is also a reason for them to get the firepit because their farm are cheap with it, I don't like to change it
While I think your point about the uniqueness of their upgrades is valid, Iro definitely needs an age 2 and 3 eco boost, and a change like the one I proposed is probably one of the easier ways to do it, apart from giving them steel traps or an extra starting villager. Maybe something changing kanya horseman and/or tomahawk cost could be an alternate way to do it (make them cost more food and less wood, i.e. change kanya cost to 125f 50w and toma cost to 80f 20w or something like that, I honestly have no idea)
For sioux, I would like to see a change on wakina, rather than on rifl riders because rilf riders are balanced Imo, and I still don't get the wakina's speed change which I would like to be reverted (you just can't catch them now, and why would they need this change ?) Rather buff age 2 like you said.
While I do think that the wakina speed change is a little weird, I think it is OK because it fits within the theme of the civ. Personally, I think giving them 19 range would have been a little bit better,
but both have roughly the same result. Rifle riders are kind of balanced, but because of their being countered by goons, sioux can rarely use them to take out cannons, like they were designed to do judging from their 6x multiplier. I just think that they are too situational, and in the situations where they can be good, they are often times OP, and the situations where they are bad, they are really,
really bad.


Thanks a lot for detailled answer, anyway (same for @Hazza54321 even though I totally disagree with most of your ansswer contend)

A last remark about my personnal vue of the current balance : I strongly disagree with people saying ottomans is trash now just because of jan's change. I said a change, because that's not even really a nerf : They are still as good as befor, there is just a litte problem because 5 of them is less than before, so it's like producing less with one rax
I do agree that the jan change is probably a buff to ottoman in general, but it really a huge nerf to their fortress. It is so detrimental in a ff as you said because with 90f jans you'll have too much res income to produce from 1 rax, but too little or not enough wood to make use of a second rax. Additionally, it makes jans get 3-shotted by tc's instead of 4, so in a lot of cases the 12% hp reduction functions a lot more like a 25% reduction. However, with the buffs to otto's eco play, I think that we will be seeing fewer straigh ff's anyway, so the point is a little moot (and jan combat solves the HP issue pretty easily too, and it is pretty good now in comparison to 8 jans because that card was nerfed by the jan cost reduction.
But the Church change is buff for ottto, and is actually OP on 400w start/good for no TP maps. So to be fair I think otto are stronger than befor, and at least I am sure they aren't trash.
Hazza54321 wrote:Holy fuck an autobiography
User avatar
Germany aligator92
Dragoon
Posts: 476
ESO: aligator92

15 Nov 2017, 20:23

As proposed by others, please consider changing the 1-10 scale or normalize votes with the range of values that the voter used

As most people do not like the Uhlan nerf and germany's strength is heavely dependent on TP availability and crate start you might want to consider increasing TP cost to 225w for germany (dunno if you can change the cost for only one civ). This way Germany is slowed down on wood starts (200f 200w might often lead to a 18v age up with a tp and 300f 200w will be slower aswell) and not effected on no TP maps where they struggle anyway

Since everyone thinks Brit is too strong I don't see why we should not give 140w manors a shot

I think Aztec are fine
Germany lordraphael
Howdah
Posts: 1750

15 Nov 2017, 20:29

reverting all changes for india and buffing them via the house change AND additional 100 food would make them top civ immediatly
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 696

15 Nov 2017, 20:32

Personally i always felt russia stronger than french. At least in that mu for sure. Idk maybe there are even records, but i think even in tournament records russia won that mu more than france.
And this poll basicly how you feel about civs. I guess otto had a very nice win percentage last tournament and its the "weakest" in the poll...
User avatar
Sweden deadrising78
Skirmisher
Posts: 123
ESO: deadrising78

15 Nov 2017, 20:40

Darwin_ wrote:Aztec: strong
Azzy are probably the best rush civ still remaining, and probably the only civ with viable aggressive play vs. semi's

Viable aggresive play vs semis?
I smell a nerf incoming
User avatar
Russia yurashic
Howdah
Posts: 1041
ESO: Yurashic
Location: Russia

15 Nov 2017, 21:09

Balance is good atm, except for Otto and Russia being too weak and Britain being too strong.

I have no idea why people say that India and Japan are bad now and need a buff, everyone just plays India these days, I think at least 50% of my recent games have been against India. India can now start with a tp every game because of the house change and play age 3 against other age 3 civs and it is quite strong because of good units, eco and the extra TC buff. Few people play Japan these days but it's not like Japan was a bad civ before and it was not nerfed except for the age 4 bug fix and yumi hp (clearly not a weak unit right?).
Great Britain Hazza54321
Jaeger
Posts: 3455

15 Nov 2017, 21:21

should decrease jan train time then, with this "change" that isnt a nerf
Venividivici_w: i heard h20 signed up last minute. Prob waited for roby not signing up so he wouldnt get smashed again

Well, Im the best thing that happened to aoe3 - vane stoilov 2k17
User avatar
United States of America Darwin_
Howdah
Posts: 1234
ESO: Anonymous_01
Location: United States

15 Nov 2017, 21:24

lordraphael wrote:reverting all changes for india and buffing them via the house change AND additional 100 food would make them top civ immediatly

That's why I suggested having the agra not give 2 sepoys when going to age 2.
Hazza54321 wrote:Holy fuck an autobiography
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 01
Posts: 4700
ESO: Garja

15 Nov 2017, 21:49

Balance is a bit fucked up but overall it's not bad because every civ now has at least one strong option. Basically last patch increased variety and allows for some creative play, which is a good thing. Soon enough however some very abusable things will emerge since changes have been quite big this time.

Forum Info

Return to “ESOC Patch Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest