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Great Britain WickedCossack
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05 Dec 2017, 16:12

Guess I'll download the tool to find out what's going on then.

I only started market since I thought it would have better synergy with 5vil first and got hd/gangsaw instead of 2 manor start which probably works better with vc 700w. With steel traps I doubt you can hit those early lb numbers.
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United States of America _H2O
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05 Dec 2017, 23:04

WickedCossack wrote:
VC first
- Colonial age at ~4:10 with 7 manors built during transition.
- Last manor starts building at 5:00 - 5:10.
- 2 barracks are done by 5:30.
- Vill count at 6 minutes is 36.
- Longbow count at 6:00 is 8.
- Longbow count at 7:00 is 23.
- Longbow count at 8:20 is 45.



I just tried out a couple of builds to see if I could match these stats without VC and 700w even when I lose all the extra VS due to walking time and it seems to be fairly easy to match.

Starting difference was I tested my builds on a 100c start as opposed to your 300w and I take one starting level 1 coin treasure (no xp) to trade at the market which I think is fairish since 100w is more VS than 100c.

I also tried shipping 5 vils as the first card instead of 700w since it's relevant to the topic.

With a medium eco build (37 vil at 6 mins) I can reliably beat the 7 and 8 min lb counts with more lb at earlier times though I get my first 10 lb just after 6 min.

With a high eco build (50 vil just after 6 mins) triple rax the lb count catches up somewhere between 9 and 10 mins.

Despite all the dropped VS (and I must've dropped at least 500 on the high eco game) the builds seem to compete fairly well if not better than VC/700w. :hmm:


That was what we found when I played normal stuff vs VC builds in real games.

I am assuming you said with actual games and resource dropping sending VC vs not sending it turns out about the same?
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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06 Dec 2017, 00:16

Well against the AI, but not mathematically processed. I did a lot of builds with and without xp and shipment limitations and yea it's all pretty similar.

I think part of the reason is VC benefits more from the tool. Any overgather on lower costs has greater effect on exponential long term growth (so gathering 89 wood slows down a VC build more than gathering 136 wood for non VC) Since even a 1000apm korean can't stop overgather it tanks a real life VC build more.

Either way this whole discussion got round to testing some pretty weird builds including tp 3/2/5/4 vils and aging with 2 vils. If you want to have the best eco then this is it!
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United States of America SirCallen
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06 Dec 2017, 00:31

I can't imagine what all you fucks will do with a brand new Age game. Considering the discussion on this here 10 yr old one...
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Sweden Gendarme
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06 Dec 2017, 00:55

This is why AoE4 took so long. AoE3 is still not fully explored!
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Tuvalu gibson
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06 Dec 2017, 03:15

WickedCossack wrote:Either way this whole discussion got round to testing some pretty weird builds including tp 3/2/5/4 vils and aging with 2 vils. If you want to have the best eco then this is it!
tp 3/vc/5/4 is my deccan build :hmm: :hmm:
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06 Dec 2017, 03:19

gibson wrote:
WickedCossack wrote:Either way this whole discussion got round to testing some pretty weird builds including tp 3/2/5/4 vils and aging with 2 vils. If you want to have the best eco then this is it!
tp 3/vc/5/4 is my deccan build :hmm: :hmm:

when you also ageup with 500f its my build
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Tuvalu gibson
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06 Dec 2017, 03:28

tedere12 wrote:
gibson wrote:
WickedCossack wrote:Either way this whole discussion got round to testing some pretty weird builds including tp 3/2/5/4 vils and aging with 2 vils. If you want to have the best eco then this is it!
tp 3/vc/5/4 is my deccan build :hmm: :hmm:

when you also ageup with 500f its my build
no thats diarougas build
I kissed a girl and I liked it
The taste of her cherry chap stick
I kissed a girl just to try it
I hope my boyfriend don't mind it
It felt so wrong, it felt so right
Don't mean I'm in love tonight
I kissed a girl and I liked it
I liked it
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Canada Mitoe
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06 Dec 2017, 03:42

I seem to remember winning a Brit mirror vs Aiz with that build a while back. Nice eco :)
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United States of America Darwin_
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06 Dec 2017, 04:29

2v age-up is underrated IMO.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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06 Dec 2017, 08:35

_H2O wrote:
WickedCossack wrote:
VC first
- Colonial age at ~4:10 with 7 manors built during transition.
- Last manor starts building at 5:00 - 5:10.
- 2 barracks are done by 5:30.
- Vill count at 6 minutes is 36.
- Longbow count at 6:00 is 8.
- Longbow count at 7:00 is 23.
- Longbow count at 8:20 is 45.



I just tried out a couple of builds to see if I could match these stats without VC and 700w even when I lose all the extra VS due to walking time and it seems to be fairly easy to match.

Starting difference was I tested my builds on a 100c start as opposed to your 300w and I take one starting level 1 coin treasure (no xp) to trade at the market which I think is fairish since 100w is more VS than 100c.

I also tried shipping 5 vils as the first card instead of 700w since it's relevant to the topic.

With a medium eco build (37 vil at 6 mins) I can reliably beat the 7 and 8 min lb counts with more lb at earlier times though I get my first 10 lb just after 6 min.

With a high eco build (50 vil just after 6 mins) triple rax the lb count catches up somewhere between 9 and 10 mins.

Despite all the dropped VS (and I must've dropped at least 500 on the high eco game) the builds seem to compete fairly well if not better than VC/700w. :hmm:


That was what we found when I played normal stuff vs VC builds in real games.

I am assuming you said with actual games and resource dropping sending VC vs not sending it turns out about the same?
The comparison is invalid. He did an actual build order, what I did was a comparison by doing the simplest possible build. I didn't even have a market and I'd be stacking 2 shipments at 8 min, so of course his lb count would be higher. Note his medium eco build has 37 vills at 6 min with hd and gang saw. That's building 13 manors. My build has 36 unupgraded vills at 6 min with 20 manors, because I'm not sending 5v. Already the entire benefit of VC is negated right there.

You may have won in real games because you outplayed your opponent. Or you may have won because it was a mirror, and booming isn't viable in mirrors in the first place, VC or no. Instead of drawing conclusions from questionable data you might try actually playing with the build yourself, or try to find a flaw in the thread I posted back in 2015. As of yet nobody has refuted the data and still so many people keep saying "it's just not viable". I mean is it really that surprising that saving 500 wood over 3 minutes game time is better than 3v, which gathers 300? (oh you're also down 81 XP). For the record if both max manors you're actually saving 900w.
WickedCossack wrote:I think part of the reason is VC benefits more from the tool. Any overgather on lower costs has greater effect on exponential long term growth (so gathering 89 wood slows down a VC build more than gathering 136 wood for non VC) Since even a 1000apm korean can't stop overgather it tanks a real life VC build more.
You're reaching. That's insignificant. The conclusion I drew is straightforward: 30 second faster build order is better than +3v.
Either way this whole discussion got round to testing some pretty weird builds including tp 3/2/5/4 vils and aging with 2 vils. If you want to have the best eco then this is it!
Yeah, it's a shame booming isn't viable in mirrors. If it was, we'd be getting more and more greedy until at last we'd be aging with 2v.
But VC into maxing manors isn't weird. You can get away with that in the majority of match ups. VC isn't about getting the best possible eco. It doesn't even get a better eco than the 3v boom, it's just faster. It saves a ton of wood, which means you are done booming after 700w when the 3v build is still chopping to finish their boom afterwards.
SirCallen wrote:I can't imagine what all you fucks will do with a brand new Age game. Considering the discussion on this here 10 yr old one...
What's great about it is that the discussion is about Brits, a civ that hasn't been changed since vanilla. VC has been viable all this time. It never fit into the meta as well as it does now, but even on vanilla I'm sure there were niche situations where the card was good.
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Netherlands Jerom
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06 Dec 2017, 11:11

Tbh the tool to test build orders is not worth. You can just do it in a real game in 10 minutes and have a vastly superior result.

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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06 Dec 2017, 11:31

With the tool you can:
- Load builds you've tested previously if you want to re-test them with small changes
- Go back to previous points in the build to make changes, allowing you to easily try new things and undo if it didn't work the way you expected
- Re-use parts of the build order so that you don't have to script them all over again
- Eliminate poor execution and map spawn as factors, allowing you to objectively compare builds
- Get a log of your build order to share with people, so that they don't have to go ingame and watch a recording

So the primary benefit is that it saves a shit ton of time, especially to those who are interested in build order theory. A bonus is that the collected data is much easier to interpret and share.
To me, it's definitely worth it. But maybe that's only because I know exactly how it works. I can imagine it's not the most user friendly tool in the history of software ;)
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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06 Dec 2017, 16:29

@Goodspeed

To clarify I tested a lot of BO's including many based around your original test where you only send 2 shipments and there is no market.

I will attach 2 approx 8 min recordings for comparison.

One is your original test BO with VC/700w max manors and the second is a comparative eco 3vil/5vil BO. No market, no extra shipments. The villager counts are exactly the same once the manors complete. The numbers next to the time stamps are the number of longbows.

Both these games I tried to emulate perfect macro or at least get as physically close to it as possible. My hunt control was slightly better in the villager build but 2 critical tree locations ran out at bad moments so VS felt the same. Feel free to scrutinize by watching the recs.

I also kill 30xp of guardians in the villager build to simulate early xp. I'd do the same in the VC build but VC arrives on time anyway and the second shipment is available to send when you age it would make no difference.

Here are the statistics:

VC 700w
5:20 Last manor ~ 34 vils
5:33 Rax 1 completes
5:38 Rax 2 completes
6:04 5
6:09 10
6:34 15
6:38 18 (should have been 19)
7:04 23
7:11 25
7:34 30
7:42 33
8:03 38
8:13 41
3vil 5vil
4:52 Last manor ~ 32 vils (5:23 ~ 34vils)
5:20 Rax 1 comletes
5:33 Rax 2 completes
5:51 5
6:04 10
6:21 15
6:34 20
6:51 24
7:06 27
7:25 31
7:38 34
7:57 38
8:08 42 (should have been 43)


Now bear in mind this is the best possible case for VC where you hit 20 manors. Any game where you can't gather as much wood in transition due to enemy aggression the stats posted above shifts in the non VC builds favour immensely. I'd say if you know you can't immediately build 18 manors it's not worth considering since even the faster shipments can't bring it back.

Of course the thing VC has going for it is the XP bonus to get faster follow up shipments. Sure you can ship 5 vils and take a villager lead for a bit but the non VC build can ship their 700w and create a mass of units at the 8 min mark that VC can't hit. This is probably why @Mitoe and @_H2O have had experiences where they ship 5 vils first followed by crates you can reach production rates that crates followed by 5 vils can not. Ingame it feels smooth. VC would have to follow up 700w with 600w to compete.

This is all assuming you can get away with units as late as 5:51 or 6:04, if you need units earlier then the stats go absurdly in non VC's favour.

Recs are RE patch.
Attachments
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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06 Dec 2017, 17:25

See this is why you need to use the tool. You can't even see postgame before the rec ended :sad: and they played at like 1.2x speed, classic AoE3 lol.
And of course I had to watch one of them twice because I needed a piece of data that I had forgotten the first time around. Can't even tab out :sad:

Anyway, another reason to use the tool is that it enables mathematical comparison between builds and eliminates execution as a factor, which your approach did not:

1. Your first vill starts producing 5 seconds faster in the 3v build. This means that:
- You aged 5 seconds earlier and got your colonial shipment 5 seconds earlier, which is a bigger deal than you might think especially considering the 700w finances 8 manors.
- Every trained villager gained you 5 VS for the whole game.

2. You built one less manor than I think you meant to with the 3v build. This means you saved 135 wood, and explains (along with the earlier age up and gained VS compared to the VC build) why your raxes were so much faster. It also means the 3v build was a villager down at the end of the build order.

And I realise you were trying to mimic my build from the earlier thread but this was very beneficial to the 3v build since you are down 216 XP (in this case 243 since you forgot a manor). You're not sending it but your second colonial shipment is 20 seconds slower than with the VC build, and perhaps even more importantly your third colonial shipment is 35 seconds slower. In semi-FF scenarios, where VC builds are often strong, this means a 35 second slower 700c and therefore a 35 second slower fortress time. In long colonial games it means your cav switch comes 35 seconds slower.

In conclusion, any difference in lb count can be explained by the fact that you saved 135 wood in the early game by booming to 1 less vill than VC, and by your entire build being sped up by 5 seconds due to the earlier first vill. With that and the large XP gap in mind, the VC build is clearly better in my view.
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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06 Dec 2017, 17:48

Well I only did them once because it's painfully slow to do them and your right there's always going to be differences without a tool.

I checked again the start and yea there is a difference in vil times though it's not 5 seconds? I thought the age 1 was better for VC also with a higher food total. But sure if it ages a few seconds later that would make a difference. Yea looks I forgot a manor also :( so that would probably even up the unit counts.

Bearing that in mind though and considering this is the best possible scenario for VC I don't see how you can draw the conclusion that VC is clearly better. In the vast majority of situations you can't delay units as long as 6 mins and any cut to that works immensely in favour of non VC, and I mean ludicrously. It doesn't matter you get a 2nd colonial shipment a few seconds earlier you're so far behind already.

Even taking xp into consideration and assuming vc can build 20 manors immediately 3vil 5vil 700w still outmasses vc 700w 5vil. Thing with VC is it absolutely needs 700w to be shipped first since that's what builds the production and extra manors and doesn't really have the option of 5 vil first.

In summary perhaps the one area VC could be better is the semi-FF scenario you mention (for instance playing against china) where you might want to ship 700c pretty fast and match their age3? I still don't see how you can call VC clearly better though in general.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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06 Dec 2017, 17:59

I meant here it was clearly better. Obviously it's not better if you need a lot of units in early colonial. From the 2015 thread:
The data tells us that the builds turn out about equal if you build less than 13-14 manors with 3 vills first (equivalent to 16-17 with VC first). However, 3 vills quickly starts falling off if you want to boom to 14+ manors (or 17+ with VC). This is due to the 700w being spent on manors and the player being unable to build their barracks in a timely fashion.
And for the record (this will be obvious to most of you I hope), if you build less than 9 manors (chosen arbitrarily) before 6 minutes, which is equivalent to less than 12 manors with VC, this can’t be considered a boom and the 3 vill build is always superior. That’s the reason the graph starts at 9. We are looking at the best boom builds for Brits here, not the best rush.
The thing is, you can get away with maxing manors in a lot of match ups these days. No, I'm not saying VC is always better than 3v. My only point is that it's a viable card, which people are somehow still in denial about years after the thread I made which I thought made a pretty strong case, biased though I am.
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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06 Dec 2017, 18:04

Right, I think we should leave it here then.
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United States of America _H2O
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07 Dec 2017, 12:37

The point is that VC is just not better enough even when you use it to the fullest. If you can open the rec and say “yeah but 5 seconds faster villager is a key reason for the results” then you already lost me. You lost me because I’d rather have the flexibility of not maxing manors and building them more spread out than the margin eco edge.

I know this is one of those debates that can’t be won but I’m with wickedcossack here.

VC is viable because it performs about the same as 3 villager in some situations.
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Finland somppukunkku
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07 Dec 2017, 12:40

The only viable VC build is 3v-VC-700w with a TP start. others suck.
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07 Dec 2017, 12:41

duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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United States of America noissance
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07 Dec 2017, 18:32

What card is good to send after 700 wood when you are being defensive? 600 wood or 6 musk?
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United States of America SirCallen
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07 Dec 2017, 19:11

Probably a unit shipment, ye, if you're struggling to hold the rush. Or 700g for a type of early, low manor pop timing/hold.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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07 Dec 2017, 19:23

_H2O wrote:The point is that VC is just not better enough even when you use it to the fullest. If you can open the rec and say “yeah but 5 seconds faster villager is a key reason for the results” then you already lost me. You lost me because I’d rather have the flexibility of not maxing manors and building them more spread out than the margin eco edge.
5s faster build and 1 less manor were key reasons the results were unfairly skewed towards the 3v build. By the time raxes started building the 3v build was up about 300VS because of these 2 factors, which explains the difference in speed between the rax timings. After that, for every trained villager the build gains another 5 VS and another 40 from the 700w arriving 5 seconds late (which also slows the raxes).
Much more importantly the VC build is up 200+ XP. If you consider that advantage "marginal" enough not to use the card you are underestimating it. A 35 second faster 3rd colonial shipment is a big deal, especially in the very common semi-FF scenarios where you will often end up using VC.
I know this is one of those debates that can’t be won.
Why not? The game is just a bunch of numbers, in the end.
VC is viable because it performs about the same as 3 villager in some situations.
VC is viable because it significantly outperforms 3v in match ups where you are able to max manors in early colonial, which is a surprisingly high number of match ups.
Whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

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XeeleeFlower wrote:I don't mind open endings as long as the story continues at some point
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Italy Garja
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07 Dec 2017, 23:42

VC only really makes a difference with TP and 3v before that, being the equivalent of 600w but earlier in the game and granting more xp than normal 3v build.
Aside from that VC isn't that different from normal brits boom. It helps on MUs were you defend and perhaps in MUs were you want to semi because of the XP and the combination of vills+pop space which is ideal for shipments + usual big battle in III.
In general there is more than just efficiency in builds. Flexibility and pragmatically of builds are a big factor and it usually translates in efficiency.

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