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France kami_ryu
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04 Mar 2018, 03:22

Welcome to MU of the week. Every week a thread will be opened where we go over a certain match, set on a certain map. Hopefully the discussion will be in depth and top players will share their insight. Replays are definitely welcome so that people may support what they have to say. To make things even more interesting and engaging, we'll set the match-up on a certain map.

This week's featured match-up is Sioux versus Portuguese, the map is Arizona.

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You can vote on next week's thread here: https://goo.gl/forms/aJaEGXaIIxYi19kO2

You can find a list of ESOC maps here: maps.php

Here the match up table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

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Welcome! Credit for this idea goes to @lemmings121 as well as @musketeer925 & @BrookG building upon it. They are the masterminds behind this pretty nice idea!
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No Flag Forjustice
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04 Mar 2018, 09:02

Why not French,I except to perceive some French native in this map.
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France kami_ryu
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ESO: kami_ryu & incognoto
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04 Mar 2018, 11:31

I just took the top two civilizations in the poll and matched them on a TP map.
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France Kaiserklein
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04 Mar 2018, 11:49

Sioux wins easily imo, because they're way faster than ports. They will just get more eco early on and way more units in early fortress. Should be able to deny the 3rd tc or at least force it in base, and the food is pretty low on this map so ports need mapcontrol quickly, which they can't really get.
Then of course ATP is a possibility, and it would make ports much faster. The problem is that on arizona there is usually a couple treasures with renegados, which basically means dead portugueuse explorer. Pets (or even nats from treasures) can even potentially lame villagers that would try to build ATPs, because it takes like 100 seconds for a vil to build a TP, which is long enough for it to die. Meanwhile Sioux can easily grab 1 or 2 tps for himself. So ATP is not viable most of the time I'd say.
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European Union bwinner1
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04 Mar 2018, 12:09

Kaiserklein wrote:Sioux wins easily imo, because they're way faster than ports. They will just get more eco early on and way more units in early fortress. Should be able to deny the 3rd tc or at least force it in base, and the food is pretty low on this map so ports need mapcontrol quickly, which they can't really get.
Then of course ATP is a possibility, and it would make ports much faster. The problem is that on arizona there is usually a couple treasures with renegados, which basically means dead portugueuse explorer. Pets (or even nats from treasures) can even potentially lame villagers that would try to build ATPs, because it takes like 100 seconds for a vil to build a TP, which is long enough for it to die. Meanwhile Sioux can easily grab 1 or 2 tps for himself. So ATP is not viable most of the time I'd say.

Are you sure that on ep4.2 sioux still have got a so good eco early on ? and since port won't be very aggressiv, the defenssiv part of sioux isn't very usefull anymore. Also, as you know, the vil don't need to build the entire TP if he is getting attacked, he can just build it until 1000hp and then go back so that the explorer finish it later. But well you're right I wouldn't go for atp vs sioux...
What would you do anyway since it's not rly about who win but rather about the BO ?
I guess your standart sioux BO should work just fine : 5v/700w/700g/9wakina semi ff with 1 TP, 4 teepees in base+market (was 6 teepees previously but with ep4.2 I don't think you build more than 4), semi ff with br or ar. Vs port Idk I think I would do a br semi ?
About port I have no clue ? Maybe an xbows semi with no age 1 card or eco theory if you can have one TP and then 700w/700f/700g semi ?
When you are talking with an idiot, he may be doing the same
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No Flag britrouga
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04 Mar 2018, 12:25

I think port ATP musk semi should win it, as long as you make sure the sioux can't have too many pets.
In the 3rd age the port should wall and play skirm/goon. Port skirms can't outrange wakinas so the sioux can't poke without commiting really hard, and once the port gets to the 4th age, goons just win the game.
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France Kaiserklein
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04 Mar 2018, 12:39

@bwinner Well just shipping 5 vils means that it takes time for ports to catch up. Not having to build houses is virtually some eco as well. Ports making vils from 2 or 3 tcs also slows them down early on.
Then the teepees aren't much worse eco wise atm, tbh. Your resources are always a bit spread in your base, so spreading the teepees isn't that big of a deal. Sioux still gets a nice gathering boost anyway. The point of this change was rather to make it harder to just camp with ranged units in the middle of 6 tps or so, getting 75% hp boost.

Yeah the vil can just start the tp, but since the explo anyway dies even faster than a vil (because pets have a 0.1 multiplier vs vils), he won't be able to finish the TPs either. At least not if theres a renegado or a native warrior.

I would do an axe semi, because you need to be able to burn the 3rd port tc if he tries to place it out of base. BR don't have siege. Also BR just die faster to tc fire because lower hp and no ranged resist. Your axe can also siege a port TP btw if you don't find anything else to do and if he didn't go for ATP. But yeah, you can do a normal semi BO I guess, and go heavy on skirms early on since ports don't have a cav shipment. I would make more than 4 teepees though, they still have a lot of range so they will reach resources.

With ports idk what you're supposed to do, probably just a musks semi, to defend the raids/your TP/your 3rd TC. But in age 3 these musks are just kind of useless and I don't think you will ever have time to start outmassing sioux, especially on a lowfood map like arizona. And even if you do, they will still be able to call the dogs big button in middle game, with cav combat and firepit on attack dance, and you probably die anyway.
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No Flag britrouga
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04 Mar 2018, 12:52

Kaiserklein wrote:especially on a lowfood map like arizona

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:
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France Kaiserklein
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04 Mar 2018, 14:34

Yeah it's a bit low food.
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Netherlands Bachscharfschütze
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04 Mar 2018, 14:46

but what if sioux took atp
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Italy Garja
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04 Mar 2018, 15:54

arizona is not low food btw. It has 2 safe deer hunts and good hunts overall. It doesn't have berries anymore tho. Anyway since it's rather open I think Port extra TCs are useful here.
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France Kaiserklein
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04 Mar 2018, 16:26

2 safe deer hunts is not a lot of food. It's decent, but not enough food for ports to just stay in base. So they need to try and get mapcontrol with tcs, and that's where sioux can push.
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Italy Garja
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04 Mar 2018, 16:57

Well, for reference
Arizona: 1 copper mine, 4 bison, 2x9 pronghorns, 8 trees, 2 treasures.
Hudson Bay: 2 silver mines, 4 moose, 9 elks, 5 moose, 8 trees, 2 treasures.

I mean, I don't know exactly what you refer to with "just stay in base" but it's definitely enough to reach age3 and start making units.

Anyway I think ATP is overrated. I mean, surely if you get away with 3/4 TPs and no other drawback of course it is good. But there is just so many things that can go wrong that imo it doesn't have a good reward/risk ratio. Aside from pet laming, just the fact that you're basically spending a card and committing to chop 360w+ without immediate payoff to me it makes the strat not that great. Sioux can always claim back one TP, especially if Port are spending resources stagecoaching it and also there is a chance one vill dies right after taking the tp against 4 axe shipment. Everything will also be later than usual no ATP build.
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Kiribati SirCallen
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04 Mar 2018, 17:05

ATP is good but maybe not vs a TWC civ with the best age 1 hero.
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No Flag britrouga
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04 Mar 2018, 17:18

Garja wrote:Well, for reference
Arizona: 1 copper mine, 4 bison, 2x9 pronghorns, 8 trees, 2 treasures.
Hudson Bay: 2 silver mines, 4 moose, 9 elks, 5 moose, 8 trees, 2 treasures.

I mean, I don't know exactly what you refer to with "just stay in base" but it's definitely enough to reach age3 and start making units.

Anyway I think ATP is overrated.

Frankly if you can get 3 TPs it's not.

I mean, surely if you get away with 3/4 TPs and no other drawback of course it is good. But there is just so many things that can go wrong that imo it doesn't have a good reward/risk ratio. Aside from pet laming, just the fact that you're basically spending a card and committing to chop 360w+ without immediate payoff to me it makes the strat not that great.

Pet laming is the only issue I see, the card saves you 240w if you can take 3 TPs and makes them a lot stronger. You're spending a card but since you have no 3vills shipment and eco theory is bad, it's probably the best thing you can do, and it's not like you're really spending a card compared to someone who would keep that shipment for later since because of the exp the TP provide, you'll have more shipments.

Sioux can always claim back one TP,

Yes, it's still 3 TPs vs 1 and it's fine.

especially if Port are spending resources stagecoaching it and also there is a chance one vill dies right after taking the tp against 4 axe shipment.

Honestly if the Sioux player sends 4ars 1st and I just lose 1 vill (it means he will have to spend time killing it), I'm happy with this, it delays his 5v shipment by about 100s (and I'm generous), which means he loses 500VS for a vill.

Everything will also be later than usual no ATP build.
Not really, because you're skipping the market for some time (till 700w), which saves you 300w+175c early so you can still build a rax and train 5musks, and by the time you build the market, you'll have a 12 vill economy thanks to the TPs.
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Italy Garja
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04 Mar 2018, 17:52

Eco theory is not bad, it scales pretty fast. But if you don't like eco theory you can just skip and get 700x instantly.
ATP doesn't give any value early on. It forces you to chop more wood than you would normally and you're spending one card just to get a card back. The extra eco will be spent on wood, which you don't even need because of extra TCs for pop and because saving the shipment you can send 700w. If and only Ports get through all of this without harm then yes those TPs will provide an extra eco boost.
4ar is a free card for Sioux because they should get 2 TPs and 4 teepee and don't need houses so they can go 4axe 5v 700g which is > 5v 700g 700w. Also being stagecoached by the opponent is always good.
The fact that you have to skip market and eco theory is what makes Port eco bad and the feel you need something extra to compensate. Also, I don't wanna get into math because it's not even the point here, but your calculation is rough. You forget you pay 400 resources for stageocach and also you count 3 tps as 12v but they have to stay on wood for that and it's likely you don't even need the wood but something else early on.

Thing is that ATP, even with Spain, comes at quite substantial costs. But atleast Spain has easier time getting shipments and they age up reliably at 4.10 quite often. Also they have dog to protect the tp line building process.
Sioux can just go 4axe + units from wh and take back the TP line. And Port can't really contest it because they just spent ton of resources in building them plus Sioux just outspam Ports early on.
Another way to try punish ATP is just ignoring it and going for a rush. Sioux can do a classic TWC rush with tons of units early on and going ATP stagecoach vs that is just dumb.
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No Flag britrouga
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04 Mar 2018, 18:42

Garja wrote:Eco theory is not bad, it scales pretty fast. But if you don't like eco theory you can just skip and get 700x instantly.

Eco theory is bad. By the time you get 30v, you're out of hunts/mines and you neeb to push out. Frankly I think even 2v is a better shipment than eco theory, it's only good in team games.
You can skip and get 700x, which is what most players do, but as I said, if you ship ATP, thanks to the exp the TPs will provide, you'll get 700x instantly, but on top of that, you'll have a TP eco.


ATP doesn't give any value early on. It forces you to chop more wood than you would normally and you're spending one card just to get a card back.

It does give you value early on, when you get stagecoach it's basically +12v. And no, you don't gather more resources than you would normally because normally you want a market with the food and gold upgrades which is 300w/175c, and gives you a lot less eco than a 3 TP stagecoach line.
And you're not spending one card just to get a card back, you're spending one card to get a card back AND a 10+ vill eco AND a solid map control because TPs become outposts.


The extra eco will be spent on wood, which you don't even need because of extra TCs for pop and because saving the shipment you can send 700w.

It makes no sense, why would you spend the extra eco on wood if you don't need it? Just set them on gold and it's a nice 10v gold trickle which allows you to train more skirm/goons. The reason they're put on wood is because people want to have a better unit composition with some artillery.

If and only Ports get through all of this without harm then yes those TPs will provide an extra eco boost.

Nah, you don't get it, not only does it give you an eco boost, but it also gives you a solid map control, and forces a reaction. The opponent has to do something to match the TP eco like skipping eco or delaying the 3rd age in order to contest the TP line. Frankly at 7min the ATP card and the wood have already paid off (eco theory takes at least 6-7min to pay off compared to an age 2 shipment)

4ar is a free card for Sioux because they should get 2 TPs and 4 teepee and don't need houses so they can go 4axe 5v 700g which is > 5v 700g 700w. Also being stagecoached by the opponent is always good.

Come on garja, try to think twice before posting non sense. The 4 ars shipment is obviously not free lol, not at all. You're delaying the 5v by about 100s, which is 500VS, definitely not "free", and you do need some wood lol. 2TPs+4teepees+stable+rax+firepit+ars upgrade+brs upgrade, that's 1500w, don't tell me you're going to chop 1100w, and if you do, don't claim that chopping 360w as Port is a big deal lmao. Of course you don't need the firepit and brs upgrade that early, and that's why 4ars 5v 700c is a viable build, but when doing this you're skipping some eco and you really have to make something happen with the 4ars, like kill at least 3vills and iddle a lot, which is something you're not going to do vs Ports because the 2 TCs can protect the vills and they'll make musks to deal with your raids.

The fact that you have to skip market and eco theory is what makes Port eco bad and the feel you need something extra to compensate.

To compensate? It's not to compensate, it's a fucking game breaking eco advantage, eco theory is 3v and with ATP you're going to build the market from 700w anyway, so you're delaying it by 2min max, which means you'll have 15v gathering 20% during 120s, that's 360 VS.
So since, going 4ars 1st is free compared to 5v 1st, while being a 500VS difference, I guess you'll agree that delaying the market is free too, and then the stagecoach player is 7 vills ahead.


Also, I don't wanna get into math because it's not even the point here, but your calculation is rough. You forget you pay 400 resources for stageocach and also you count 3 tps as 12v but they have to stay on wood for that and it's likely you don't even need the wood but something else early on.

"Sure but stagecoach and 3 TPs also give you a lot of exp (like +2 shipments), which means you have one extra shipment (let's say 600c) to consider and going stagecoach is this more than efficient. I'm sure you don't wanna get into maths because after claiming 700w+500VS are free you'll look dumb.

Thing is that ATP, even with Spain, comes at quite substantial costs. But atleast Spain has easier time getting shipments and they age up reliably at 4.10 quite often. Also they have dog to protect the tp line building process.

As spain you have a 3v shipment, so you have to send it and send ATP, which makes your age2/3 shipments slower and that's why ATP is better for Port than it is for Spain. Dogs are great though, I admit it but my point about ATP is without take into account the pet laming.

Sioux can just go 4axe + units from wh and take back the TP line.

No, or that's a really big commitment, because you need a lot of siege to take down TPs (4ars is definitely not enough, you need at least 9 or clubs), and the Port player is going to make musks so you'll also have to make 10 cetans. In the end it means you're spending at least 1500 more resources in colonial to take down 1 TP (and you won't even kill one if he goes for something like 700w/700f/8bows with 2 raxes), and if he doesn't adapt and decides to age, you're going to be 2minutes late on the age 3 and that gives him enough time to get the TP line back (and it's "free" for him,
because TPs only cost 120w ie 240 VS with ATP).


And Port can't really contest it because they just spent ton of resources in building them plus Sioux just outspam Ports early on.

Wrong, double rax musk+a bow shipment simply spams more, unless the sioux goes for like 4ars/6cetans/2dog soldiers, in which case he won't have a real eco, and he prob won't ever be able to age.

Another way to try punish ATP is just ignoring it and going for a rush. Sioux can do a classic TWC rush with tons of units early on and going ATP stagecoach vs that is just dumb.
Yea, teach me how to break 2 TCs with double minutemen and 6musks/8bows shipments lol. Just no way.
Venezuela Hazza54321
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04 Mar 2018, 18:47

Any bets on what diarougas next esoc acc name will be?
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No Flag britrouga
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04 Mar 2018, 18:49

Hazza54321 wrote:Any bets on what diarougas next esoc acc name will be?

You should make a thread with a list and I'll take the best one.
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Italy Garja
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04 Mar 2018, 18:56

Eco theory gives a buffer of res early on, when it matters. Then it becomes gradually better and better. I've been using it since forever as well as other good players ofthe past and it works. Honestly, cba arguing about that because every time people says it's worth only 1.5v bla bla. Just use it and see that your eco just gets way better when you can actually gather. Of course vs aggressive civs it is better to play safe and save the shipment.

ATP works whenever the opponent let you do that, like with euro civs in semi ff wars. If the opponent is any smart he will counter it in a way or the other, except for some rare cases when it can be a 100% safe investment. Can't be bothered to answer point by point, but the logic is, if you can't (or can barely) hold strong pressure without spending one card early on, there is no way you can hold while also wasting a card on ATP. Then specific builds to counter it is just a matter of testing.

For the record, 4axe is like one of the best cards in the game, being worht 800 res (yes mostly food, still 800 resources) and allows very early pressure. It is hardly a wasted card.
You can send 5v first, sure, but that plays on the opponent hands since obviously Sioux eco is worse by default. Also if you want to do any TP related strat (either taking or contesting) you can't send 5v first but more likely have to use 700w. Since you don't exactly need 700w as Sioux you can send 4axe, it is just an adaptation.
Sioux are going to make more units in colonial anyway. Like for example 4axe + 10 clubs (+ eventually more units depending on whether Ports try to defend the TPs or not). Alternatively it would be 4axe+5axe. It's not big deal really.
Double rax musk+8bow doesn't even hold a cetan rush without the ATP waste of resources. Imagine when you waste a card and also chop extra 160w (for 3 TPs instead of 1), plus the vill walking time.
You don't need to go that all in with Sioux rush, you can go like 4axe 700w 6 bows etc. and you simply get 5+5+5 etc. vs Ports than can't even use the 2 raxes because of pressure and inefficiency of ATP.
You're not going to break it just contain forever.
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No Flag britrouga
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04 Mar 2018, 19:10

Garja wrote:Eco theory gives a buffer of res early on, when it matters.

It does but it's still a 1.5v shipment lol.

Then it becomes gradually better and better. I've been using it since forever as well as other good players ofthe past and it works.

Have they? Some have, some haven't, and anyway, people doing a build doesn't mean that it's good. Good players have used a lot of builds for years while they were bad.

Honestly, cba arguing about that because every time people says it's worth only 1.5v bla bla. Just use it and see that your eco just gets way better when you can actually gather. Of course vs aggressive civs it is better to play safe and save the shipment.

I've used it during a long time, and when I decided to save the shipments instead, it felt much better. And ATP felt even better.

ATP works whenever the opponent let you do that, like with euro civs in semi ff wars.

What's your point? Sioux, unless he can lame with pets, can't prevent you from doing that.

If the opponent is any smart he will counter it in a way or the other,

how?

except for some rare cases when it can be a 100% safe investment. Can't be bothered to answer point by point, but the logic is, if you can't (or can barely) hold strong pressure without spending one card early on, there is no way you can hold while also wasting a card on ATP. Then specific builds to counter it is just a matter of testing.

If the opponent goes for some pressure, you'll be more than happy because you'll have a TP line giving you resources while his units get rekt by the TC fire, your minutemen and your extra shipments such as 6musks and 8bows.

For the record, 4axe is like one of the best cards in the game, being worht 800 res (yes mostly food, still 800 resources) and allows very early pressure. It is hardly a wasted card.

It's one of the best card in the game if you consider the resources it gives you, absolutely. Still, it is a military shipment, and sending it 1st does mean that you're going to lose 500VS and won't be able to send 700w. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, it's a decent build, but you can't deny that it really hurts your eco and you have to make something happen. Against Port I'd say that it is bad and that these VS and 700w are better.

You can send 5v first, sure, but that plays on the opponent hands since obviously Sioux eco is worse by default.

That's why Sioux was one of the worst civ before they got buffed, because they couldn't match the opponent's eco and couldn't hurt him with unit shipments.

Also if you want to do any TP related strat (both taking or contesting) you can't send 5v first but more likely 700w.

Yep, if you want to play with warhut units, it is indeed better to send 700w first, but again, that's a big military commitment, and you'll need at least 5clubs/10cetans and 4ars if you want to kill a TP, else the opponent will hold it with his musks.

Since you don't exactly need 700w you can send 4axe, it is just an adaptation.

You do need 700w. If you want to play in fortress because you need the wh, the firepit and the upgrades, and if you play colonial because you'll also need a warhut and some cetans.

You're going to make more units in colonial anyway. Like for example 4axe + 10 clubs (+ eventually more units depending on whether Ports try to defend the TPs or not). It's not big deal really.
Double rax musk+8bow doesn't even hold a cetan rush without the ATP waste of resources.

ATP is not a waste of resources lol, especially if the opponent rushes your TP line, it's an eco boost and an outpost. You're going to lose 2 or 3 cetans to the TP before you can take it down. And Port definitely holds the cetan rush with TC fire and minutemen. Easily. Not even close.

Imagine when you waste a card and also chop extra 160w (for 3 TPs instead of 1), plus the vill walking time.
You don't need to go that all in, you can go like 4axe 700w 6 bows etc. and you simply get 5+5+5 etc. vs Ports than can't even use the 2 raxes because of pressure and inefficiency of ATP.
You're not going to break it just contain forever.

If you do this you're going to take the TP line and but it is all in lol. You don't have 5vills, no way to go to fortress etc. The Port guy is just going to make 10 musks, watch you lose 5 units to the TPs,
age and kick your army with skirm/goons.

Venezuela Hazza54321
Jaeger
Posts: 4074

04 Mar 2018, 19:20

You tell him azrouga
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Italy Garja
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04 Mar 2018, 19:26

You keep giving for granted that a) you're going to get all 3 TPs up and b) that you have resources to stagecoach them plus getting units out to defend them.
First of all, the vill going for the 3rd TP will be late and if you bump on Sioux TP you're probably going to get beaten on time for the 4th one. Then good luck stagecoacing the line for the opponent.
Second, no Ports don't hold the cetan rush or any infantry heavy rush that easy. In fact even basic stuff like a 2x xbow rush is going to beat you if you don't react properly. With a card spent on ATP and with TPs miles away from your base you're simply not going to old a well executed rush. Especially if you make musks(???) which get countered super hard by cetans. That's one way to punish the ATP play.
Another way is to just kill 1 TP and be tied 2-2. At that point Port wasted a card and spent 400 res for your benefit.
Your judgement on "big investment" in colonial units is somewhat misplaced. Colonial units are never wasted. Whoever age ups with more colonial units has basically the upped hand, to the point that is in fact smarter for the Port player to just contest the TP line with commitment (once ATP has been sent) or just give it up without using ATP.
And no you don't need 700w as Sioux because you buy all the wood you need for WH and axe up, which is more efficient than sending a specific card or moving vills across resources.
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1551

04 Mar 2018, 19:34

I didn't realize berries had been removed from the new Arizona, could be quite a close match without the additional safe food.

I will say on water maps though Port is probably the best counter to Sioux. Double dock naked FF and just stay in your base and you can't be touched.
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Brazil lemmings121
Howdah
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04 Mar 2018, 19:45

Garja vs rouga bo99 confirmed?

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