Dutch Discussion Thread

Netherlands momuuu
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Hazza54321 wrote:4 lancers to 5 was no problem at all, and theres about 3 civs that have a chance vs dutch

4 to 5 lancers was very different though hazza. The 4 hussar shipment dutch has is shared by all other civs that have it. If you simply alter that shipment to 5 hussars, then british will have 2 5 hussar shipments as an unforseen consequence. So they had to remove the 4 hussar shipment and readd the 5 hussar shipment. An entirely different case compared to 4 -> 5 lancers. Kinda disappointing what I said about something that I have direct experience with is discredited in this way.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

4 huss change is a technical problem. I also believe is sort of a useless change and also Dutch doesn't even need that. i'd rather change 7 ruyters to 8 which, even tho is rarely used, can sometimes be useful to hold a colonial timing when dutch has just aged.
Dutch is indeed counterable it's not like they always win. Problem is just that when they reach 5 banks the income is retarded.
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Dutch doesn't need an eco buff lol.
And the 5th bank costs you 700 resources for less than 5v, so most of the time in 1v1 it's just better to play on 4banks because you need wood for market/houses/rax/stable and sometimes even 1TP

Ye Dutch doesn't need an eco buff, that's what I'm saying.
5th bank is not even a choice, it's always good to build it because it gives xp back and the wood you might need for those things you just buy it back at the market. In fact everyone is playing with 5 banks whenever it's possible.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by forgrin »

I said this earlier too but why not lock out 5 banks using the bank wagon card? Make it bank wagon, +1 bank limit and add a cost to the card like 200w or so. With the wood cost it'd only make sense to send it when you're at 4 banks, so Dutch still gets 5 banks but it's a little more difficult to set all 5 down super early.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

forgrin wrote:I said this earlier too but why not lock out 5 banks using the bank wagon card? Make it bank wagon, +1 bank limit and add a cost to the card like 200w or so. With the wood cost it'd only make sense to send it when you're at 4 banks, so Dutch still gets 5 banks but it's a little more difficult to set all 5 down super early.

I'd say 5 ultra early banks is done going 700w -> bank wagon anyways.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:4 lancers to 5 was no problem at all, and theres about 3 civs that have a chance vs dutch
That's precisely the point – 4 Lancers isn't a shared shipment, hence there's no issue with it.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by forgrin »

momuuu wrote:
forgrin wrote:I said this earlier too but why not lock out 5 banks using the bank wagon card? Make it bank wagon, +1 bank limit and add a cost to the card like 200w or so. With the wood cost it'd only make sense to send it when you're at 4 banks, so Dutch still gets 5 banks but it's a little more difficult to set all 5 down super early.

I'd say 5 ultra early banks is done going 700w -> bank wagon anyways.


Yeah, so adding a wood cost to the card should make that build worse, which is I think what we want to target. Ofc 700w-600w-bank wagon would still exist but it would delay things by one card and slow the exp a bit
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

forgrin wrote:
momuuu wrote:
forgrin wrote:I said this earlier too but why not lock out 5 banks using the bank wagon card? Make it bank wagon, +1 bank limit and add a cost to the card like 200w or so. With the wood cost it'd only make sense to send it when you're at 4 banks, so Dutch still gets 5 banks but it's a little more difficult to set all 5 down super early.

I'd say 5 ultra early banks is done going 700w -> bank wagon anyways.


Yeah, so adding a wood cost to the card should make that build worse, which is I think what we want to target.

Oh, you want to add wood cost to a card. So you basically want to completely change a card that has been a core playstyle to counter the 5 bank limit that was added? That seems completely nonsensical, jsut remove the 5th bank then? The 5th bank is redundant anyways, if it is safe it's over the top and if Dutch struggles at all its completely unneccessary. It'd be completely fine to remove it.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

so u cant change a card, but u can delete a civ and make a new one (sioux)
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

You're incorrect on both counts. We can and did not, respectively.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by forgrin »

momuuu wrote:
forgrin wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Yeah, so adding a wood cost to the card should make that build worse, which is I think what we want to target.

Oh, you want to add wood cost to a card. So you basically want to completely change a card that has been a core playstyle to counter the 5 bank limit that was added? That seems completely nonsensical, jsut remove the 5th bank then? The 5th bank is redundant anyways, if it is safe it's over the top and if Dutch struggles at all its completely unneccessary. It'd be completely fine to remove it.


I'm not saying having 5 banks is necessarily a good idea, just providing an option where we could still have 5 banks as a possibility. I think it'd be good for EP team games too.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by macacoalbino »

@Garja whats the point of buffing the vill card? I dont get it?
Wouldnt it be a bit ober the top since dutch villies gather coin faster? Meaning its actually more than just 5vills
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Read the thread.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by macacoalbino »

What fucking part? There are 8 fucking pages if you didnt notice
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

1) read them all 8, can't be bad
2) the same post where I talk about the 5v
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

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Post by Hazza54321 »

just delete the civ on ep
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by macacoalbino »

Man, you really deserve having the people who troll you everytime
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Why? Because you're too lazy to reread my post and interpret it?
Remove 5th bank, buff vill card. It's that simple. Since "someone" wants Dutch to have more eco than just 4 bank and a 4v card.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by rsy »

What a dick
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Who?
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

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Me
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Garja wrote:Why? Because you're too lazy to reread my post and interpret it?
Remove 5th bank, buff vill card. It's that simple. Since "someone" wants Dutch to have more eco than just 4 bank and a 4v card.
Yes they need it because the changes in the meta, most importantly the rise of the TP, have allowed for other civs to make more eco investments. Dutch, being unable to contest a TP line, has lagged behind. Without the 5 bank limit, Dutch's advantage in the mid game is effectively gone because their eco is no longer ahead. French used to be afraid of Dutch's 4 bank eco. Now they match it on TP maps.

If Dutch are too strong, which it looks like they are, the best way to fix that is by nerfing banks (in this case simply reverting the cost decrease), not by reducing the limit. It should be obvious to anyone that there's a problem if Dutch are booming to the same (max) number of banks every single game (goodbye build diversity) and still losing, which is the case on RE.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Goodspeed wrote:Yes they need it because the changes in the meta, most importantly the rise of the TP, have allowed for other civs to make more eco investments. Dutch, being unable to contest a TP line, has lagged behind. Without the 5 bank limit, Dutch's advantage in the mid game is effectively gone because their eco is no longer ahead. French used to be afraid of Dutch's 4 bank eco. Now they match it.

If they are too strong, the best way to fix that is by nerfing banks, not by reducing the limit. It should be obvious to anyone that there's a problem if Dutch are booming to the same (max) number of banks every single game and still losing.

Well first of all, they barely match it with stagecoach if they do at all on 2 out of 3 buildable TP maps.
Second, TPs are up to grab and currently I'd say that the fact that they are exposed plays mostly in Dutch hands. If Fre goes full TP route they will hardly have any army advantage to kill that single TP Dutch make. So 4 banks +1 TP > 4 cdb + 2-3 TPs. In fact, Dutch can go 5 bank and still send 8 pikes and French are very likely going to lose the TP line unless they commit to colonial. And slow colonial build up plays in Dutch hands because at no point French will be able to make use of musketeers, the only advantage they realistically have in colonial. Both civ will end up with the same kind of delayed age up play while fighitng over the trade route. And in this scenario banks are better. This is in fact what would happen on the RE patch too, except for bank exp reversal.
On top of this French and other TP based civs have been nerfed, while Dutch received a legit XP buff (and bank cost reduction which in my opinion is not significant).
The same assumption "Dutch should mantain an eco advantage" is arguable in the first place, since French is basically the best civ per income in early and mid game. Not to mention banks have other perks such as not being subject to idle and producing infinite coin preserving gold mines.
The argument of the TP meta overall is weak. Should we then buff civs like Brits and Jap just because other civs like Fre and Ger are more likely to get TPs now? Fact is TPs are needed to match those civ eco and not the other way around.

In any case, even if we assume that everything I just said was already considered, the income from 5 banks is simply retarded. It is the equivalent of a 20 vill boom that requires ideally only 2 cards (can skip bank or use 600w for other buildings) while it gives back quite some exp. It is in fact as good as an ATP or a water boom except it is not contestable, nor it ends at any point (fish runs out).
The game was calibrated with 4 banks for a reason. It's not like devs didn't consider stagecoach back then and it's not like TP meta means it can be unharmed stagecoach everytime. Plus, again, if the problem really is the extra eco (which is not but let's pretend it is) then Dutch could just send 4v after the 4 banks. That way other civs use TPs as an extra eco and Dutch uses the vill card for the same purpose. If 4v sounds too weak then boost it to 5v, which is for sure a less problematic change than a 4->5 bank limit.

EDIT: since when Dutch are losing every time with 4 banks + legit exp bounty on EP maps?
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

people are bad. dutch not OP. But they can feel OP if you misplay vs them, which brings me back to #1 people are bad.Its a vicious cycle
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

lordraphael wrote:people are bad. dutch not OP. But they can feel OP if you misplay vs them, which brings me back to #1 people are bad.Its a vicious cycle
or maybe you’re bad and Dutch is OP :hmm:
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

gibson wrote:
lordraphael wrote:people are bad. dutch not OP. But they can feel OP if you misplay vs them, which brings me back to #1 people are bad.Its a vicious cycle
or maybe you’re bad and Dutch is OP :hmm:

that doesnt make sense. you have degraded into a true american at last ?
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.

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