Is creeping treasures cheating?

User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Mitoe »

Alt D is not comparable.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Stop trying to find one single condition that discriminates between something allowed and something not. There is not. It is decided case by case considering the bug/glitch itself, its impact, etc.
And for the record treasure side stepping could be banned too for what concerns me.

So then explain how in the particular case of crackshot bug the conclusion follows from the considerations?
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by deleted_user »

11 pages...

smite the servers, G
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

  • Quote

Post by Kaiserklein »

momuuu wrote:1) If it can be done extremely fast, why don't you go ahead and produce a video as definitive evidence?

Coming from someone who spends his time typing on these forums without ever playing, it's kind of funny. Why don't you produce videos yourself? Why don't you at least play the game, to give your arguments a shadow of credibility? Cause at the moment, you just seem to me like someone who has no clue what he's talking about, doesn't even play the game, and is still arguing the whole time for some reason.

momuuu wrote:You would ban the glitch in half the cases only if you think it's a fun trick that would improve the gameplay in the allowed scenarios.

So you think explos killing each other in no time with their machine guns would improve the gameplay in any way? It's definitely going to make age 1 more interesting. Especially when some civs don't have ranged explorers so we're gonna have to rebalance age 1 completely, sounds good.

momuuu wrote:If this is all so obvious, how come all of your arguments are being countered by diarouga? If it's so obvious then surely you could come up with tons and tons of arguments that completely blow the opposition away? Why has this not happened then? Why are you instead resulting to implying that people arguing in favor of this like cheats and cheesy shit? Is it just coincidence that instead of giving real arguments you give an ad hominem fallacy?

My arguments all being countered by diarouga is just you being biased and imagining convenient things. In fact he's been replying to only half my points. He was also calling the pull trick a glitch earlier, just like you wondered if the explo crackshooting pets is a glitch, which just shows a lack of knowledge/logic from both of you. If you think my arguments aren't real, then we might as well just stop discussing here, you're not worth my time. I've detailed my arguments enough in these few threads, if you can't understand them, too bad.
Anyway, it's not about how many arguments I have or how good they are. Obviously in 90% of cases, people just don't change their mind. No matter how ridiculous you both are with the crackshot glitch, and no matter how many people disagree with you and prove you wrong, you will keep arguing like bots.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea some guys are more open minded than some other :P

Some guys have a lamer/cheater mentality and are ready to use anything to win more games. Honestly, after having shared cheats, you should just be shutting up instead of advocating glitches. Your opinion can't be taken seriously.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Mitoe »

Creeping: This is just the logical progression after witnessing the way treasure guardians are intentionally designed to reset after running a certain distance from their starting point. It only makes sense to exit that radius and attack them from outside of it. It was built into the game and there's no reason to believe that creeping was an unintended game mechanic.

Pull-tricking: Also just the logical progression from witnessing the way unit formations are designed to work. Units are designed to move at different speeds to group up together. The game has both stats and animations for this. It's not bug abuse, and is definitely a healthy mechanic for the game.

-------

Wagon Construction: Constructing a building with wagon is pushing the boundary a little bit. It sort of makes sense that the wagon is able to do this, as it is designed to construct buildings, afterall; but it's definitely a bug, and feels a bit gimmicky to use. Thankfully this bug is rarely relevant, and when it is the returns are minimal. I wouldn't mind seeing this one banned, as it's easy not to do this.

Sidestepping: This one is a bit more iffy. Guardians likely should not behave this way once you are within their radius—definitely a bug. Is it bad for the game? That's debatable. Regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's not really bannable as much of the time players will do it unintentionally, and deciding what is intentional or not during a tournament game is only going to create drama and other problems.

-------

Alt-D: I don't see how anyone could argue that this is not a bug bordering on cheating. Explorers are designed to be revived by other units or through ransoming. If they were intended to be revived upon the push of a button, then there would be a visible button for it. Instead, they only revive upon changing stances (which are invisible in the UI and only accessible via hotkeys whilst the explorer is dead). Not to mention that it makes no sense within the context of the game whatsoever.

Alt-D massively changes the way age 1 works; there's far less risk in losing your explorer when you know you can just revive it at the push of the button at any time you see fit. Sure maybe your opponent could kill your explorer again if you do this; but to be honest, if they're still sitting on your explorer hoping you'll revive it so that they can get 45 - 100xp, then they're probably wasting time/resources. It feels very gimmicky to have to stand there and wait for your opponent to randomly revive it. If you kill your opponent's explorer you should have more freedom to do other things in age 1. Hell, you could even just let your explorer die inside your opponent's base, and then revive it at any point in time just to scout. There's no way that's fair. I should have some semblance of control over what your units do in my base; instead I would have none. I cannot remove your explorer from my base, I just have to let it sit there or build walls around it and avoid building or pathing anything of relevance in and through that area.

I just don't see any way you could argue that Alt-D is a healthy game mechanic.

Crackshot Cancelling: This one is definitely more debatable than Alt-D, I suppose, and ultimately it comes down to whether or not it has a positive or negative impact on the game, and in my opinion, there are more negatives than positives, for reasons stated earlier in this thread that I can't be bothered to touch on again before I go to work.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:Alt D is not comparable.

You can do better than this, surely. By your logic, alt-d fits the exact criteria you used to justify why the treasure creeping is allowed and the crackshot trick isn't. Then I can literally repeat your argument to claim alt-d should be allowed. You can restructure your argument to make it so that alt-d wouldn't be allowed, but as far as I can tell it means the core structure and point of your argument would fall apart. You'd then finally construct an argument that admits it's a subjective argument, I believe. I'd love to see you come up with something differently. Instead you came up with something that's not actually an argument. Quite disappointing.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:Creeping: This is just the logical progression after witnessing the way treasure guardians are intentionally designed to reset after running a certain distance from their starting point. It only makes sense to exit that radius and attack them from outside of it. It was built into the game and there's no reason to believe that creeping was an unintended game mechanic.

Pull-tricking: Also just the logical progression from witnessing the way unit formations are designed to work. Units are designed to move at different speeds to group up together. The game has both stats and animations for this. It's not bug abuse, and is definitely a healthy mechanic for the game.

-------

Wagon Construction: Constructing a building with wagon is pushing the boundary a little bit. It sort of makes sense that the wagon is able to do this, as it is designed to construct buildings, afterall; but it's definitely a bug, and feels a bit gimmicky to use. Thankfully this bug is rarely relevant, and when it is the returns are minimal. I wouldn't mind seeing this one banned, as it's easy not to do this.

Sidestepping: This one is a bit more iffy. Guardians likely should not behave this way once you are within their radius—definitely a bug. Is it bad for the game? That's debatable. Regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's not really bannable as much of the time players will do it unintentionally, and deciding what is intentional or not during a tournament game is only going to create drama and other problems.

-------

Alt-D: I don't see how anyone could argue that this is not a bug bordering on cheating. Explorers are designed to be revived by other units or through ransoming. If they were intended to be revived upon the push of a button, then there would be a visible button for it. Instead, they only revive upon changing stances (which are invisible in the UI and only accessible via hotkeys whilst the explorer is dead). Not to mention that it makes no sense within the context of the game whatsoever.

Crackshot Cancelling: This one is definitely more debatable than Alt-D, I suppose, and ultimately it comes down to whether or not it has a positive or negative impact on the game, and in my opinion, there are more negatives than positives, for reasons stated earlier in this thread that I can't be bothered to touch on again before I go to work.

So the definition for a cheat is that something is a bug?
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Mitoe »

Bugs that benefit the player are more often than not going to be a form of cheating, I think; but as I think this thread has already established, not all bugs are necessarily bad for the game, and especially in a game that's no longer receiving official support it should be decided on a case-by-case basis whether or not that bug is considered a healthy game mechanic or cheating.

Also, I expanded on the Alt-D point a bit.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:
momuuu wrote:1) If it can be done extremely fast, why don't you go ahead and produce a video as definitive evidence?

Coming from someone who spends his time typing on these forums without ever playing, it's kind of funny. Why don't you produce videos yourself? Why don't you at least play the game, to give your arguments a shadow of credibility? Cause at the moment, you just seem to me like someone who has no clue what he's talking about, doesn't even play the game, and is still arguing the whole time for some reason.
Ad hominem and burden of proof fallacy
Ignoring this 'argument'


momuuu wrote:You would ban the glitch in half the cases only if you think it's a fun trick that would improve the gameplay in the allowed scenarios.

So you think explos killing each other in no time with their machine guns would improve the gameplay in any way? It's definitely going to make age 1 more interesting. Especially when some civs don't have ranged explorers so we're gonna have to rebalance age 1 completely, sounds good.
This is a good argument at its core, although phrased with needless arrogance. I can definitely see how you'd dislike this trick because explorers might be killing eachother too easily due to it. However, your argument misses the nuances. You act as if explorers will always be fighting within the range of a treasure (the requirement for making this trick possible). In reality of course on can easily pull away from a fight near a treasure. This means that preserving hp when going for treasures is more important as that would increase the age 1 dominance.
The secondary part of this point is again exaggerated, but really good indeed. Does this completely break the early game for the nonranged civs? Well first of all, the Sioux explorer is so fast that it can abuse the trick almost as much. The Chinese monk's stun is ranged so this only matters for the first couple of shots - it's thus a tiny disadvantage for China indeed. For india this trick means they'll lose explorer combat, but in practise india actually never engages in explorer combat because they lose explorer combat anyways. It is definitely not as huge as you make it seem if you consider this.


momuuu wrote:If this is all so obvious, how come all of your arguments are being countered by diarouga? If it's so obvious then surely you could come up with tons and tons of arguments that completely blow the opposition away? Why has this not happened then? Why are you instead resulting to implying that people arguing in favor of this like cheats and cheesy shit? Is it just coincidence that instead of giving real arguments you give an ad hominem fallacy?

My arguments all being countered by diarouga is just you being biased and imagining convenient things. In fact he's been replying to only half my points. He was also calling the pull trick a glitch earlier, just like you wondered if the explo crackshooting pets is a glitch, which just shows a lack of knowledge/logic from both of you. If you think my arguments aren't real, then we might as well just stop discussing here, you're not worth my time. I've detailed my arguments enough in these few threads, if you can't understand them, too bad.
Anyway, it's not about how many arguments I have or how good they are. Obviously in 90% of cases, people just don't change their mind. No matter how ridiculous you both are with the crackshot glitch, and no matter how many people disagree with you and prove you wrong, you will keep arguing like bots.
A lot of ad hominem here. It's not actually a lack of knowledge/logic but a different way to look at things. I've responded to your one non-adhominem argument here, so we could have a discussion if you brought more of those to the table. Unfortunately, you seem to insist on being an angry guy that flames others needlessly. If you'd try to have a civilized discussion it might actually be worth your time.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea some guys are more open minded than some other :P

Some guys have a lamer/cheater mentality and are ready to use anything to win more games. Honestly, after having shared cheats, you should just be shutting up instead of advocating glitches. Your opinion can't be taken seriously.
Again ad hominem, it's becoming quite a theme in your posts, isn't it. Advocating glitches isn't a bad thing: as proven in these threads its very normal for gaming communities to accept glitch usage and thus advocating for glitch usage seems extremely normal. I don't see why such an opinion 'can't be taken seriously'.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:Bugs that benefit the player are more often than not going to be a form of cheating, I think; but as I think this thread has already established, not all bugs are necessarily bad for the game, and especially in a game that's no longer receiving official support it should be decided on a case-by-case basis whether or not that bug is considered a healthy game mechanic or cheating.

Also, I expanded on the Alt-D point a bit.

If you had payed close attention to the thread(s) about this subject, you'd have found proof that bugs are not necessarily a form of cheating. The overwhelming consensus in the gaming community is actually that bugs should be accepted in cases where the bug is perceived as beneficial. There have been zero sources posted here that contest this statement. Thus, the logic you provided in your previous post is clearly flawed. It's completely irrelevant to discuss to which extend a bug is beneficial or a bug, it's actually relevant to discuss to which extend a bug is good for the game. You seem to actually be aware of this ("not all bugs are necessarily bad for the game") yet you do not actually discuss to which extend the crackshot bug is good/bad for the game. To actually make a point you need to discuss to which extend a bug is good for the game, otherwise you're just spewing out factually incorrect or logically incoherent statements.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Mitoe »

I didn't contradict anything you just said in my post, nor do I think differently. All I said is that most of the time a bug is going to have a negative impact on the game, and should therefore be considered cheating.

I did discuss a couple of the reasons why I think crackshot cancelling is mostly negative for the game earlier in this thread, but I have to leave in 5 minutes so I can't really go into it now. Mostly the problem is how heavily it could affect balance in age 1, and how much more quickly you can take smaller treasures.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Praise the fucking lord, I convinced someone. Those are quality arguments Mitoe. You even included the mandatory "I think".
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Mitoe »

Okay screw it I need to explain that last point just a little bit more before I leave. How much more easily you can take treasures is huge because it completely changes your decision making in age 1. Usually when you come across a treasure you have to consider whether your opponent has scouted it, and how likely they are to be able to contest it if they see you doing it.

Normally this means you have to choose between creeping, or straight up fighting the treasure, with pros and cons to both decisions:

Creeping:[b] Takes more time and is more risky as you spend a lot of time with the treasure outside of your LOS, but save HP for future treasures.

[b]Fighting:
Takes less time, and you will always know if your opponent comes to contest the treasure, but you lose signfinicantly more HP.

Basically, you choose between how much time you want to spend taking it, and how many hitpoints you wish to spend.

With crackshot cancelling, though, it will always be the best way to do some treasures regardless of the situation because you save both time and hitpoints. There's no decisions to be made, no need to consider the whereabouts of your opponent's explorer or other age 1 units. You just walk up and do the treasure in 5 seconds and move onto the next one.

This, to me, takes away from the game more than it adds to it, and is only one of the reasons it affects age 1 balance so much.



FML I'm gonna be late for work now.
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
momuuu wrote:1) If it can be done extremely fast, why don't you go ahead and produce a video as definitive evidence?

Coming from someone who spends his time typing on these forums without ever playing, it's kind of funny. Why don't you produce videos yourself? Why don't you at least play the game, to give your arguments a shadow of credibility? Cause at the moment, you just seem to me like someone who has no clue what he's talking about, doesn't even play the game, and is still arguing the whole time for some reason.

momuuu wrote:You would ban the glitch in half the cases only if you think it's a fun trick that would improve the gameplay in the allowed scenarios.

So you think explos killing each other in no time with their machine guns would improve the gameplay in any way? It's definitely going to make age 1 more interesting. Especially when some civs don't have ranged explorers so we're gonna have to rebalance age 1 completely, sounds good.

momuuu wrote:If this is all so obvious, how come all of your arguments are being countered by diarouga? If it's so obvious then surely you could come up with tons and tons of arguments that completely blow the opposition away? Why has this not happened then? Why are you instead resulting to implying that people arguing in favor of this like cheats and cheesy shit? Is it just coincidence that instead of giving real arguments you give an ad hominem fallacy?

My arguments all being countered by diarouga is just you being biased and imagining convenient things. In fact he's been replying to only half my points. He was also calling the pull trick a glitch earlier, just like you wondered if the explo crackshooting pets is a glitch, which just shows a lack of knowledge/logic from both of you. If you think my arguments aren't real, then we might as well just stop discussing here, you're not worth my time. I've detailed my arguments enough in these few threads, if you can't understand them, too bad.
Anyway, it's not about how many arguments I have or how good they are. Obviously in 90% of cases, people just don't change their mind. No matter how ridiculous you both are with the crackshot glitch, and no matter how many people disagree with you and prove you wrong, you will keep arguing like bots.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea some guys are more open minded than some other :P

Some guys have a lamer/cheater mentality and are ready to use anything to win more games. Honestly, after having shared cheats, you should just be shutting up instead of advocating glitches. Your opinion can't be taken seriously.

Lol fking raped both of them /thread
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:Okay screw it I need to explain that last point just a little bit more before I leave. How much more easily you can take treasures is huge because it completely changes your decision making in age 1. Usually when you come across a treasure you have to consider whether your opponent has scouted it, and how likely they are to be able to contest it if they see you doing it.

Normally this means you have to choose between creeping, or straight up fighting the treasure, with pros and cons to both decisions:

Creeping:[b] Takes more time and is more risky as you spend a lot of time with the treasure outside of your LOS, but save HP for future treasures.

[b]Fighting:
Takes less time, and you will always know if your opponent comes to contest the treasure, but you lose signfinicantly more HP.

Basically, you choose between how much time you want to spend taking it, and how many hitpoints you wish to spend.

With crackshot cancelling, though, it will always be the best way to do some treasures regardless of the situation because you save both time and hitpoints. There's no decisions to be made, no need to consider the whereabouts of your opponent's explorer or other age 1 units. You just walk up and do the treasure in 5 seconds and move onto the next one.

This, to me, takes away from the game more than it adds to it, and is only one of the reasons it affects age 1 balance so much.



FML I'm gonna be late for work now.

Nice, I can definitely see these arguments. Very convincing to me actually. Although I dislike randomness in age 1 a lot and actually just dont like age 1 so to me maybe the crackshot trick is more fun. But your view is definitely justified and you definitely won the thread. Im surprisingly happy to read good 'counter'arguments
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:
momuuu wrote:1) If it can be done extremely fast, why don't you go ahead and produce a video as definitive evidence?

Coming from someone who spends his time typing on these forums without ever playing, it's kind of funny. Why don't you produce videos yourself? Why don't you at least play the game, to give your arguments a shadow of credibility? Cause at the moment, you just seem to me like someone who has no clue what he's talking about, doesn't even play the game, and is still arguing the whole time for some reason.

momuuu wrote:You would ban the glitch in half the cases only if you think it's a fun trick that would improve the gameplay in the allowed scenarios.

So you think explos killing each other in no time with their machine guns would improve the gameplay in any way? It's definitely going to make age 1 more interesting. Especially when some civs don't have ranged explorers so we're gonna have to rebalance age 1 completely, sounds good.

momuuu wrote:If this is all so obvious, how come all of your arguments are being countered by diarouga? If it's so obvious then surely you could come up with tons and tons of arguments that completely blow the opposition away? Why has this not happened then? Why are you instead resulting to implying that people arguing in favor of this like cheats and cheesy shit? Is it just coincidence that instead of giving real arguments you give an ad hominem fallacy?

My arguments all being countered by diarouga is just you being biased and imagining convenient things. In fact he's been replying to only half my points. He was also calling the pull trick a glitch earlier, just like you wondered if the explo crackshooting pets is a glitch, which just shows a lack of knowledge/logic from both of you. If you think my arguments aren't real, then we might as well just stop discussing here, you're not worth my time. I've detailed my arguments enough in these few threads, if you can't understand them, too bad.
Anyway, it's not about how many arguments I have or how good they are. Obviously in 90% of cases, people just don't change their mind. No matter how ridiculous you both are with the crackshot glitch, and no matter how many people disagree with you and prove you wrong, you will keep arguing like bots.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea some guys are more open minded than some other :P

Some guys have a lamer/cheater mentality and are ready to use anything to win more games. Honestly, after having shared cheats, you should just be shutting up instead of advocating glitches. Your opinion can't be taken seriously.

Your arguments are only personal attacks here.
Pull trick may not be a glitch, but it is still abusing a feature which wasn't intended to be used to micro.
I am indeed willing to use every mechanic there is in the game to get an advantage, that's the definition of competitive play.
Likewise, you use pull trick to get an advantage, and you played Germany back when the civ was op (you used it because it's the civ you've always played though).
Anyway, there isn't a single argument in your post, you complained about Jerom not being active, and you call me a cheater lol.
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Cometk »

momuuu wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
momuuu wrote:1) If it can be done extremely fast, why don't you go ahead and produce a video as definitive evidence?

Coming from someone who spends his time typing on these forums without ever playing, it's kind of funny. Why don't you produce videos yourself? Why don't you at least play the game, to give your arguments a shadow of credibility? Cause at the moment, you just seem to me like someone who has no clue what he's talking about, doesn't even play the game, and is still arguing the whole time for some reason.
Ad hominem and burden of proof fallacy
Ignoring this 'argument'

rather, an appeal to authority. somebody who is active may have a more informed opinion than somebody who is not.
Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:Okay screw it I need to explain that last point just a little bit more before I leave. How much more easily you can take treasures is huge because it completely changes your decision making in age 1. Usually when you come across a treasure you have to consider whether your opponent has scouted it, and how likely they are to be able to contest it if they see you doing it.

Normally this means you have to choose between creeping, or straight up fighting the treasure, with pros and cons to both decisions:

Creeping:[b] Takes more time and is more risky as you spend a lot of time with the treasure outside of your LOS, but save HP for future treasures.

[b]Fighting:
Takes less time, and you will always know if your opponent comes to contest the treasure, but you lose signfinicantly more HP.

Basically, you choose between how much time you want to spend taking it, and how many hitpoints you wish to spend.

With crackshot cancelling, though, it will always be the best way to do some treasures regardless of the situation because you save both time and hitpoints. There's no decisions to be made, no need to consider the whereabouts of your opponent's explorer or other age 1 units. You just walk up and do the treasure in 5 seconds and move onto the next one.

This, to me, takes away from the game more than it adds to it, and is only one of the reasons it affects age 1 balance so much.



FML I'm gonna be late for work now.

Well you also have to consider that going out of the guardian range takes time, regardless of whether or not you use fast shooting, and that creeping+fast shooting takes actually longer than fighting.
In addition, every time you shoot at the guardian while behind outside of the guardian range, he runs, which means you have to walk to shoot again, which kinda negates the advantage of fast shooting.

Consequently, if your opponent is close to the treasure, it's still better and safer to fight instead of creeping+fast shooting.

The only difference it makes is that if you decide to fight, you can shoot one more time before the guardian comes to hand combat, and if you creep, you can shoot him about 3-4 more times.

All in all, it's not very relevant and definitely doesn't break the age 1 meta, but it rewards the player who can do this micro trick as he will get between 1 and 4 more shots, which is why I disagree with your point of view.

Jerom is totally right by the way, Mitoe is the only guy so far who opposed an argument to fast shooting, as other people here just claimed that bugs are cheating by definition, and that they knew better.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Whatever you say jerom, as I said you're not worth my time. I've detailed my arguments enough already.
I don't really care anyway, the crackshot glitch won't be allowed. Now you can keep arguing against common sense if you want.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:Whatever you say jerom, as I said you're not worth my time. I've detailed my arguments enough already.
I don't really care anyway, the crackshot glitch won't be allowed. Now you can keep arguing against common sense if you want.

Sad arrogance. Take a look at Mitoe who is capable of having a meaningful discussion without flaming the other guy. You could learn a thing or two.
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by deleted_user »

lol what is going on
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Kaiserklein »

momuuu wrote:Sad arrogance. Take a look at Mitoe who is capable of having a meaningful discussion without flaming the other guy. You could learn a thing or two.

Dude have you even seen the way you and garja type to each other? Then you tell me to learn how to have a meaningful discussion? You gotta be shitting me.

If you even read those couple threads about glitches, you'd see how many meaningful arguments I've written. But there's a point where I just get tired of repeating the same stuff, that 90% of the community understands and agrees with anyway, just to convince a couple guys...
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 817
Joined: Apr 16, 2017
ESO: HUMMAN

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by HUMMAN »

I have an idea. We can form a debate club in esoc forum and discuss various topics since many people like to discuss. I am a debater and i think we can solve the issue this way.
Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

HUMMAN wrote:I have an idea. We can form a debate club in esoc forum and discuss various topics since many people like to discuss. I am a debater and i think we can solve the issue this way.

I would be fine with it but honestly people here don't like to discuss.

I do, Jerom does, Umeu probably does too but garja can't discuss, kaiser gets mad, and Mitoe hates this kind of discussions.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:
momuuu wrote:Sad arrogance. Take a look at Mitoe who is capable of having a meaningful discussion without flaming the other guy. You could learn a thing or two.

Dude have you even seen the way you and garja type to each other? Then you tell me to learn how to have a meaningful discussion? You gotta be shitting me.

If you even read those couple threads about glitches, you'd see how many meaningful arguments I've written. But there's a point where I just get tired of repeating the same stuff, that 90% of the community understands and agrees with anyway, just to convince a couple guys...

ok. I don't mind, Mitoe gave a satisfying response to my logic which allows me to rest in piece. I actually tend to respond to garja with arguments, but garja always eventually resorts to namecalling/flaming. Actually in this entire discussion I've been very constructive to all other people and have continuously responded with almost only arguments and logic. But you can think of me however you please. Just be aware that I will do the same.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV