How should Otto be buffed?

United States of America charlemango
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How should Otto be buffed?

Post by charlemango »

Ottomans are one of my favorite civs, but they lose almost every time in the tournament. Main problem imo is that abus guns are way too hard to use now, while eco still sucks. Here are my ideas for buff:
- Reduce abus gun cost slightly, maybe by 5 gold or something
- Increase mosque XP slightly
- Decrease cost of mameluke shipment to 800g. Extra gold can produce few more jans/abus guns and swing a fight.

How do you guys think we should buff Otto?
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

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Post by tedere12 »

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France Aykin Haraka
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by Aykin Haraka »

mmmmh... make otto vill free?... oh wait ...
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by KINGofOsmane »

just make them like re lol
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Germany aligator92
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by aligator92 »

charlemango wrote:...they lose almost every time in the tournament...

Do you have any data or is this just a personal opinion? Because I remember Otto doing pretty well (dunno if Kaiser has lost a game as otto so far) so I do not think they need any buffs

And for the love of god do not buff back abus or mams
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by j_t_kirk »

800g 6 mamelukes, because mamelukes are not op.
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United States of America charlemango
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by charlemango »

@aligator92 At least for the RO8 and RO16, very few players chose Otto. I think that says something about their perception as a very weak civ. Overall record was 1-2 for Otto, with Kaiserklein winning a game and Aizamk and save_your_skill losing one each. Iirc they'll publish full data after the tournament ends, so we'll see if the data holds up.
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Otto do just fine on stagecoach maps in a lot of mus, I don't think they need a buff. The mosque is also pretty op now (more cost efficient than a TP), so buffing it more might be dangerous. Abus guns are pretty good still (in age 3 they might actually be better than on RE). 800g mams could work, but then it would make sense to give ports 800g mams as well, and that's probably a bad change for ports cause they don't need it.

If anything, the problem of otto is indeed their eco, on maps where they can't get a nice stagecoach boom. It's not really the XP income, or the price of abus/mams, but really just that they don't have vils, which means they will always have to go kind of all-in if they don't have a stagecoach (and even with a stagecoach, they're still pretty all-in sometimes). So what about making their vils train slightly faster? Atm I think it's 48 seconds, we could maybe try 45 seconds (or less if needed). I don't think it would change much of their early game, where they anyway rely mostly on crates, but it might help them later on, where they currently struggle.
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Germany aligator92
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by aligator92 »

Well you cannot count Aizamk games when considering civ balance
Aizamk games have their own (un-)balance
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by oats13 »

The RTSanc FP was quite nice for ottos, I recall Samwise12 doing some interesting things with the affordable vil ups and 3 vil 4 vil, the basic problem is if you give them an inbuilt boost to help on non-tp maps it functions also as making them maybe op on tp maps so it would have to be a choice- invest in tp's or invest in better mosque maybe?
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by aqwer »

Kaiserklein wrote:Otto do just fine on stagecoach maps in a lot of mus, I don't think they need a buff. The mosque is also pretty op now (more cost efficient than a TP), so buffing it more might be dangerous. Abus guns are pretty good still (in age 3 they might actually be better than on RE). 800g mams could work, but then it would make sense to give ports 800g mams as well, and that's probably a bad change for ports cause they don't need it.

If anything, the problem of otto is indeed their eco, on maps where they can't get a nice stagecoach boom. It's not really the XP income, or the price of abus/mams, but really just that they don't have vils, which means they will always have to go kind of all-in if they don't have a stagecoach (and even with a stagecoach, they're still pretty all-in sometimes). So what about making their vils train slightly faster? Atm I think it's 48 seconds, we could maybe try 45 seconds (or less if needed). I don't think it would change much of their early game, where they anyway rely mostly on crates, but it might help them later on, where they currently struggle.
Pretty reasonable suggestion.
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Lets make otto an eco civ!
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by bittersalt123 »

Abus should get an anti cav attack for melee and a longer range.
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by yurashic »

RefluxSemantic wrote:Lets make otto an eco civ!
Otto can boom just fine now. Look at Bwinner.
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by Hazza54321 »

yurashic wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:Lets make otto an eco civ!
Otto can boom just fine now. Look at Bwinner.
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by jesus3 »

RefluxSemantic wrote:Lets make otto an eco civ!
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by duckzilla »

Buff advanced mosque card by adding another button (named "Black Sea Slave Entrepote" or "Circassian Low-Wage Workers") that ships 12 vills for the cost of 1k gold.
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

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Post by RefluxSemantic »

Remove free vills, give otto normal starting crates, give them skirmishers and dragoons, and voila you have the perfect civ!!
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by princeofcarthage »

@Kaiserklein Would you also agree that raiding probably affects otto the most because of their inability to Re-eco quickly because of slower training vills. What do you think about 5 vill card for them in age 3?
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Post by Guigs »

Don't touch otto, it's a niche civ, good at what they do
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Cynical remarks put aside, this entire direction of buffs is completely insane to me.

RE Otto was a civ that would use its efficient start its efficient units to compensate for falling behind in eco. With free vills, they're very fast in the early stages of the game which results in them usually forcing other civs to play less economically. And with how strong Jans and Abus were, it was okay for them to be behind in economy. Jans and abus might have been a little bit too strong though, but in principle this design is totally fine.

Of course then if you nerf their strongest units too much, it might feel as if they struggle economically. But then the solution isn't to buff their economy or to give them weird economic options, the solution is to just revert some of these earlier nerfs. I know abus and jans were over the top on RE, but as it stands on EP you rarely see Jan/Abus colonial play anymore. Design wise this style was totally fine on RE, it was just a bit OP. But right now on EP, it doesn't even seem viable.
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by Cometk »

how would you revert abus/jan without it becoming broken again
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by richard »

RefluxSemantic wrote:Cynical remarks put aside, this entire direction of buffs is completely insane to me.

RE Otto was a civ that would use its efficient start its efficient units to compensate for falling behind in eco. With free vills, they're very fast in the early stages of the game which results in them usually forcing other civs to play less economically. And with how strong Jans and Abus were, it was okay for them to be behind in economy. Jans and abus might have been a little bit too strong though, but in principle this design is totally fine.

Of course then if you nerf their strongest units too much, it might feel as if they struggle economically. But then the solution isn't to buff their economy or to give them weird economic options, the solution is to just revert some of these earlier nerfs. I know abus and jans were over the top on RE, but as it stands on EP you rarely see Jan/Abus colonial play anymore. Design wise this style was totally fine on RE, it was just a bit OP. But right now on EP, it doesn't even seem viable.
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Cometk wrote:how would you revert abus/jan without it becoming broken again
By only partially reverting some of the abus nerfs?
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Re: How should Otto be buffed?

Post by Kaiserklein »

princeofcarthage wrote:@Kaiserklein Would you also agree that raiding probably affects otto the most because of their inability to Re-eco quickly because of slower training vills. What do you think about 5 vill card for them in age 3?
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