The ESOC Community and Patch

[stanleywinston]

Hello community

As the other other thread was locked, I'd like to maturely discuss anything that has to do with this patch. First of all, I'll say it quite frankly: This patch is absolutely wrong.
Why in heaven rush this? When the tourney rules were discussed, we decided to ban otto and iro. Simply because they are, and yes they really are, overpowered. It came to our minds that a new patch would be good and since we had this site we could easily get it spread along the community. Now, we are here. With a patch which has received A LOT of criticism. Is the criticism correct? Yes. I'll explain.

1. Time

Yes, you rushed this. You wanted this out as soon as possible. You wanted to get rid of the moesbar hacks, sure. The maps were getting old and really buggy, alright. But apart from that? Willing to make this patch is fine, but you did not develop is correctly. You release a patch first of all with a lot of bugs, not balanced (I'll explain later) and not tested with the public. You should've given it more time. Use a Beta, and no, 2/3 weeks is not a beta. You wanted to patch 1v1, but there were more issues that the community was asking for to patch. LISTEN TO THEM! You have no idea what opportunity you're having here. You're literally wasting this opportunity to actually have a really, really good patch. We have the entire community on here. Why waste this on a 'premature released' patch?

2. The patch team

With-all-due-respect, but the patch team is peanuts. Most of them do not have any experience apart from 1v1. As I've mentioned before, team players, treaty players do exist in this world. And yes, they play this game too and they also deserve to be heard. I've listed many things that needed to be patched. And now, I'll quote Sir Goodspeed: "I'll be willing to patch this, that and that. But anything else not, because it will have effect 1v1." Alright, thanks for doing that! No. Since when do you decide what gets to be patched? If we ask for this, it's YOUR job to make this come true. Yes, that's how it is. We are the players, you are a developer. You have NO right whatsoever to decide whether something gets patched or not. I agree we need to come to a comprise. But it's not your job to decide what the patch will be like. You're not the supreme dictator. You also mentioned: "We do not want to standardize things." F*ck that man, you're not going to lose uniqueness when you nerf/buff something.

I also noticed that the rest of the team are very GoodSpeed, Garja and H2O sided. Since when do we lock threads that criticize other people? Has this site become a dictatorship? I think so yes. The power that the admins use at this moment is ridiculous. Mr. SomppuKunkku here has got some ciritcism. Yes, it was simply stated. Was there anything wrong with it? No. I've mentioned this before. As a moderator you simply are NOT allowed to be sided. It's your job to be correct and not take sides. Yes, incognoto, I am directly talking to you now. It's not because you're one of the admins right now, you are allowed to ban or delete people from the site just because you're admin. NO! You're an admin because you need to keep the spam threads, heavily sexually topics, swearing or anything else out of this forum. I created this site. I still think that without me, you or any person related to ESOC, would be nothing. Don't forget that. And Ryan, if you're reading this, if you dare lock this thread or delete it, you just confirm what I'm stating above.

3. The patch itself

Alright, lets begin this. I'll start with this sentence: 'What the f*ck?'. You're not going to tell me that this patch is balanced. If you do say so, you're just an idiot (sorry not sorry). There are literally NO improvement whatsoever. None. Balance means this to me: I pick this civilization, I come up against the other civilization and I'm totally fine. You know StarCraft II? They indeed only have 3 races, but the balance is insane. PvP, PvZ, PvT, TvZ, TvT, ZvZ. All these match-up's are balanced. Yes, it's insanely hard to do this, but what do you have PR32+ for? I mean like, if you put some effort in this? For now, I'll list every single civilization that has something imbalanced at this point, team, 1v1 or treaty. I'll formulate them in a very pleasing-to-read way. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you have no right of speaking.

Spain. Where's my eco?
Russia. Why are my units dying so fast...?
French. Their 1v1 is absolutely fine. But come on... Thoroughbreds? We don't ask much more than that.
India. Oh look, it's a sepoy rush.
Japan. Oh my god, I lost to kynesie walling the entire map. And he has an insane eco! Oh my god, I lost to Aztecs because my walls are sh*t. Enough said. Also, Japan is banned from treaty. Guess why? The very known Ashigaru musketeer. So, you're not going to tell me that they're not too strong. Come and play some team games with me! I'll gladly play japan against you.
Portuguese. Wait, is that skirmisher on a horse? "Hmm, let's not standardize things and let's make the villagers 80 food."
Dutch. Where does he get his eco? Oh wait, he has 6 banks in 8 minutes. Let's rush him! Oh, there are pikes. That's fast, he must sacrifice a lot of eco for that. Or not.
Ottomans. Why are my units dying? Ah... Abus Guns.
China. Damn, China's industrial. Haha, what is he making now? Bow pike, that's so weak. Or not?
Sioux. Damn, my eco is really bad, but my units are really really strong. Lets just raid... Ah, late game. I have no walls and suddenly 20 cav are raiding my vils!

Something good about this patch? Yes! The cheats are gone. That's a huge advantage. The maps are a lot better (some of them). Garja maps are really nice. But man, make all of them herdable, of make none of them herdable. Although there are some maps that need slight adjustment:

Cascade Range, Kamchatka, Texas. More food please. If you've never played team games, it's hard to know how much you need to put on there. But you need more. I don't think they're intended to be Hispanliola n°2.
Tibet. Pathing... Like, it's a 1v1 map, but you 'tried' to make it into a 2v2 map. Play some 2v2's and see how bad the pathing is. Also the hunts need adjustments.
High Plains. Too many trading posts. Please, Garja. I know you like trading posts, but they're really, really good. And civilizations that use tp's e.g. Ottoman, German, French,... have a huge advantage. And no, building a tp as Dutch is awful.

4. Conclusion

Well done, you've created a patch. The intentions are gold. Spending time on a patch for a 10 year old game is insane. BUT, is it good? No. Why? Because you do not take anything into account that other players say or ask. How to solve this? Maybe put some more people into the patch team? Like, team players or treaty players? Myself, PrinceofKabul, SomppuKunkku, Veni_Vidi_Vici_W, El_Pistolero_, ramex12, enjoy2play, ACERGAME09, black_thought, AJIV,... I can keep going for a while. You can make this patch so, much, better. You need to decide for yourselves (ESOC Patch Team and ESOC Staff) whether or not you want to keep getting a ton of sh*t over you. Yes, people like this game, people want to enjoy it. And you enjoy it better when you have no such thing as instant gendarmes, 20 range goons, reforms...

I created this site, ESOC. I did not create it to be some sort of dictatorship forum where people, who joined me in the beginning and are still here, can do whatever they want and make the game as they please or as they want it. I made this to form unity, not this kind of bullshit that's going on right now. I'm sorry, but it can't go like this anymore. If I knew it'd be looking like this, I'd NEVER left, and I'd never allowed some people to join me. So, whatever you do from now on, I hope the staff is smart enough. Intelligent and socially capable.

Whoever comments on this thread, please. I have no bad intentions. If I had, I wouldn't be writing this and I wouldn't have created this site. Take into account I've spent time since 2005 into this game. I know what I'm talking about. I'm not some kind of idiot that goes raging and flaming stuff. When I write something, it's thought through.

With regards

Amhaye aka Stanley_Winston

P.S. If this gets locked or deleted, I'll be laughing my ass off. It would also be very disrespectful to the person who started all this and made this entire crap.

[KINGofOsmane]

good read

[noissance]

Why are you angry? The patch is not mandatory, and some on here ecen boycott it (I See ESOC patch sucks chat rooms in game).

Also, why are you making it seem like this patch is for everyone? The patch team is a misrepresentation of the game's population itself, so of course it wont satisfy everyone. They even have a suggestion page (where suggestions are overlooked because im a 'noob'.)

I will say it time and time again:
This community is only for players 25 rank+. Anything lower rank players say gets dismissed and it's rhe primary reason why players dont want to adopt this patch.

[91]

it has been clearly stated that feedback is welcome, but as soon as it gets out of hand and too many people start accusing/flaming and it gets personal, it will be locked and people will get warnings, because it's not productive anymore.

If it stays civilized it will not be locked.

Simple as that.

[fightinfrenchman]

I hope this doesn't devolve into flaming, it can be a good discussion. I know some people can take it too far but I do feel the mods/patch team can be a little oversensitive to some legitimate criticisms.

[gustavusadolphus]

I enjoyed your organised detail.

[_NiceKING_]

good job

[iNcog]

Legit question: how old are you?

[fightinfrenchman]

I will say it time and time again:
This community is only for players 25 rank+. Anything lower rank players say gets dismissed and it's rhe primary reason why players dont want to adopt this patch.

I definitely see this as an issue as well. Unfortunately I don't think there is a good solution, the people who will be making the patch and are in charge are really focused on the high level niche.

[Darwin_]

Your concerns are completely valid, but what you have to understand is this is an evolving patch, and future updates will probably be coming in the future.

[iNcog]

I read through all of that and to be quite frank, half of it is just flaming the ESOC team and the other half seems be criticism about the patch itself. I don't mind criticism about the patch itself; on the contrary if people criticize it that gives us something to work with. That's super positive. However your criticism seems pretty mediocre to me, sorry for being a little blunt. I'm just French I guess you'll have to deal with that.

Sorry man, I just can't take you seriously when you make these kinds of posts. In the mean time, you spent 10 minutes typing this up whereas all the people on the ESOC team spent a ridiculous amount of time actually doing work:
- Setting up the new site (because Pro Boards are scam),
- New site back end,
- New site front end,
- Funding the new site,
- Writing the launcher,
- Setting up launcher to work with our rented server,
- Debugging launcher at launch,
- Helping out people with tech issues,
- Setting up launcher to work out for Mac,
- Writing the new maps,
- Writing new maps for team games,
- Creating UI (well that's aiz but yeah I'll count that);
- Actually modding the game for patch,
- Running tournaments,
- casting tournaments, media for tournaments,
- Funding tournaments,
- Setting up betting, running betting, offering $100 to the betting winner (you fucking faggot sir goodspeed),
- Coming up changes for patch, testing,
- Hosting smackdown (i guess zuta isn't staff but THANK YOU ANYWAY MATE),
- winterviews (<3),
- creating UI (had to say it twice because aiz you 2 kewl for school)
- .....

List goes on... that's what the people from the ESOC team (not me, I'm too dumb to do all that) have been working on. Personally, I am extremely thankful for all the work and time and money which has gone into all of that. We're really doing something good for the game. I just can't thank those people enough. I am absolutely, 100%, fucking grateful for those people. It's fucking amazing what those people have done for the game. It's an actual fucking community effort. It's amazing. I love this community when I see things come together.

You just wrote up some post about how things should be done and how we're all idiots... well sorry mate but I'm not going to take you seriously; I will also continue being grateful to the people who have really contributed to AoE3, whether or not you like it.

[Goodspeed]

This thread is a duplicate in some ways viewtopic.php?f=80&t=4481

Our first balance patch did not intend to balance team games, and like Darwin_ mentioned this is an ongoing project. We are open to changes which only affect team and not 1v1. Looking at that previous thread you seemed satisfied with the changes that I had bolded. Has something changed since then?
Again, 1v1 is the priority as it always has been for official patches as well. Team has never really been balanced because it's near impossible to balance 1v1 as well as team. We do intend to improve balance in teamgames, but 1v1 is hard enough already so please bear with us.

[Dsy]

"Spain. Where's my eco?
Russia. Why are my units dying so fast...?
French. Their 1v1 is absolutely fine. But come on... Thoroughbreds? We don't ask much more than that.
India. Oh look, it's a sepoy rush.
Japan. Oh my god, I lost to kynesie walling the entire map. And he has an insane eco! Oh my god, I lost to Aztecs because my walls are sh*t. Enough said. Also, Japan is banned from treaty. Guess why? The very known Ashigaru musketeer. So, you're not going to tell me that they're not too strong. Come and play some team games with me! I'll gladly play japan against you.
Portuguese. Wait, is that skirmisher on a horse? "Hmm, let's not standardize things and let's make the villagers 80 food."
Dutch. Where does he get his eco? Oh wait, he has 6 banks in 8 minutes. Let's rush him! Oh, there are pikes. That's fast, he must sacrifice a lot of eco for that. Or not.
Ottomans. Why are my units dying? Ah... Abus Guns.
China. Damn, China's industrial. Haha, what is he making now? Bow pike, that's so weak. Or not?
Sioux. Damn, my eco is really bad, but my units are really really strong. Lets just raid... Ah, late game. I have no walls and suddenly 20 cav are raiding my vils!"

Spain - yeah weak
Russia - avarage - but avoid it vs german on tournament for sure
French - team Thoroughbreds remove trains speed, or i dont get it... Btw an 1v1 player just dont care about that so i dont mind
Japan - very strong civ and one of the hardest to balance cause of food gather just so different, upgrades are too strong for millitary thats comletely true (maybe base unit stats aswell)
Port - Skirgoons just should be fixed. Remove range bonus totally give it other bonus.
Dutch - I feel it should be fixed other way. Its just too strong late but not really stronger early
Ottoman - Again completely different civ hard to balance, maybe abus fire rate back and nerf its attack directly
China - Old han should give other bonus, its broken now
Siux - hard to balance

But im hardly against walls. It should cost 5 corner 45 bigger one with 3k health.

But i dont get why are you so mad to balance team. It shouldnt be the way to get attention to your ideas.
Its the same write your ideas with anger or whithout that. Differnce is only people dont start to hate each other...

[deleted_user]

I should have re-timed my eco theory post.

[gibson]

I just want to say that it's just full retard to say high plains is stupid because it has 5 tps and give certain civs advantages. Guess what? EVERY SINGLE FUCKING MAP GIVES CERTAIN CIVS ADVANTAGES! I don't see anyone bitching about the fact that Bengal has no tps making civs like German, Otto, and French much weaker. I don't see anyone bitching about low hunt in base Yukon which makes civs like India, Russia, and Otto much stronger. No one bitches about Tibet which makes China really good and and hunt dependent civs like Brit not so good. You pick a civ based partially on the map. No one forces you to pick dutch on high plains. Pick German, French, or Otto. No one picks Otto or German on Bengal. Everyone picks China on Tibet. So instead of bitching about how "imbalanced" something that both civs have equal access to, pick your civ based on the map like you do for every single other map.

[iCourt]

Calm down there everyone... It's just a computer game...

The maps look good, and are certainly unique. Are they all balanced perfectly? No they are random thus minor imbalances occur. The tournament was played on the new maps, but that doesn't mean we are going to be playing on those specific maps forever. The next step patch progression wise would be to rebuild the ES maps from the ground up to make them more balanced than they currently are.

[Garja]

The patch is not necessarily aimed at pr25+, but ye I can see it ending up that way.
The point is that when it comes to balance there is always disagreement. Any balance patch makes some people happy and some others unhappy.
The best scenario is having the best players to perform the task of choosing what should be included and what not. On top of that there is section in these forums to discuss the changes with the rest of the community.
As someone said, the patch is still a work in progress so more changes are planned. On the other hand, changing too many things has the effect to not only discourage a number of players from playing on the patch, but also to upset the original ideas of the game to the point that each civ doesn't have unique features anymore, as much as they have been proved to be lame in practice. In addition, changing too many things starts a loop for which any time there are balance whines people push for more (unecessary) changes.

With-all-due-respect, but the patch team is peanuts. Most of them do not have any experience apart from 1v1. As I've mentioned before, team players, treaty players do exist in this world. And yes, they play this game too and they also deserve to be heard. I've listed many things that needed to be patched. And now, I'll quote Sir Goodspeed: "I'll be willing to patch this, that and that. But anything else not, because it will have effect 1v1." Alright, thanks for doing that! No. Since when do you decide what gets to be patched? If we ask for this, it's YOUR job to make this come true. Yes, that's how it is. We are the players, you are a developer. You have NO right whatsoever to decide whether something gets patched or not. I agree we need to come to a comprise. But it's not your job to decide what the patch will be like. You're not the supreme dictator. You also mentioned: "We do not want to standardize things." F*ck that man, you're not going to lose uniqueness when you nerf/buff something.

I also noticed that the rest of the team are very GoodSpeed, Garja and H2O sided. Since when do we lock threads that criticize other people? Has this site become a dictatorship? I think so yes. The power that the admins use at this moment is ridiculous. Mr. SomppuKunkku here has got some ciritcism. Yes, it was simply stated. Was there anything wrong with it? No. I've mentioned this before. As a moderator you simply are NOT allowed to be sided. It's your job to be correct and not take sides. Yes, incognoto, I am directly talking to you now. It's not because you're one of the admins right now, you are allowed to ban or delete people from the site just because you're admin. NO! You're an admin because you need to keep the spam threads, heavily sexually topics, swearing or anything else out of this forum. I created this site. I still think that without me, you or any person related to ESOC, would be nothing. Don't forget that. And Ryan, if you're reading this, if you dare lock this thread or delete it, you just confirm what I'm stating above.

Let me clarify one thing. We work in a democratic manner so that there is usually an internal discussion+poll before most of changes, and also we take into consideration where the majority of players stand on the various subjects. However, the EP is a Goodspeed idea. He proposed the project of a balance patch while most of other current members were not so keen to dive into that. So if there was anyone who could give an input in terms of general change philosophy that's Goodspeed, because again the patch was his own idea. It happens tho, in practice, that the minimalistic approach was actually a shared feeling among other team members as well.

Also you're absolutely dead wrong when you say that it is our job to match your requests.
First of all it is not a job at all. We do this in our free time so we do this with the frequence and effort that please us. Nothing of this is due. The only due thing that ESOC literally owe to the community is good tourney delivery, as there are specific money donations for that.
Secondly, we make the changes that we repute good. If people disagree with some of them, we do consider whether or not it is the case to adjust things. If there is no consensus whatsoever then you can simply go and make your own patch.
We don't have nothing to prove to you. As I said we do this in our free time and for the sole passion toward this game. That alone is enough to dismantle most of the criticism like yours here.

Also don't even get me started on the moderation/admin policy. In general, thorughout all the site sections, we have been even too much lenient just because "we are a small community and we must stay united".
You mention somppu. Fine. What was the last time he did anything useful for the community? His contribution to any discussion is generally close to zero, while his flaming and toxic behavior is unmatched. Stop defending him just because it is your friend.
Also, you're again dead wrong when you say that " As a moderator you simply are NOT allowed to be sided. It's your job to be correct and not take sides... ...It's not because you're one of the admins right now, you are allowed to ban or delete people from the site just because you're admin. NO!" It is simply the opposite of what you say, plain and simple.

Finally, with all due respect, let me tell you that you simply didn't create shit. All you did was to put your name on the project and then disappear. All the work was done by others. Take no offense. Bye.

[stanleywinston]

I read through all of that and to be quite frank, half of it is just flaming the ESOC team and the other half seems be criticism about the patch itself. I don't mind criticism about the patch itself; on the contrary if people criticize it that gives us something to work with. That's super positive. However your criticism seems pretty mediocre to me, sorry for being a little blunt. I'm just French I guess you'll have to deal with that.

Sorry man, I just can't take you seriously when you make these kinds of posts. In the mean time, you spent 10 minutes typing this up whereas all the people on the ESOC team spent a ridiculous amount of time actually doing work:
- Setting up the new site (because Pro Boards are scam),
- New site back end,
- New site front end,
- Funding the new site,
- Writing the launcher,
- Setting up launcher to work with our rented server,
- Debugging launcher at launch,
- Helping out people with tech issues,
- Setting up launcher to work out for Mac,
- Writing the new maps,
- Writing new maps for team games,
- Creating UI (well that's aiz but yeah I'll count that);
- Actually modding the game for patch,
- Running tournaments,
- casting tournaments, media for tournaments,
- Funding tournaments,
- Setting up betting, running betting, offering $100 to the betting winner (you fucking faggot sir goodspeed),
- Coming up changes for patch, testing,
- Hosting smackdown (i guess zuta isn't staff but THANK YOU ANYWAY MATE),
- winterviews (<3),
- creating UI (had to say it twice because aiz you 2 kewl for school)
- .....

List goes on... that's what the people from the ESOC team (not me, I'm too dumb to do all that) have been working on. Personally, I am extremely thankful for all the work and time and money which has gone into all of that. We're really doing something good for the game. I just can't thank those people enough. I am absolutely, 100%, fucking grateful for those people. It's fucking amazing what those people have done for the game. It's an actual fucking community effort. It's amazing. I love this community when I see things come together.

You just wrote up some post about how things should be done and how we're all idiots... well sorry mate but I'm not going to take you seriously; I will also continue being grateful to the people who have really contributed to AoE3, whether or not you like it.

First of all, I never said you guys were idiots, never stated it or never will state (except for Garja where I said he's close-minded). Where the hell does that come from. Just your sentence: "I can't take this seriously" makes me realize you don't even understand my intentions and what I'm trying to say here. Also, the little list you're stating there is what the ESOC team does, is not relevant to discussion or anything related to this? You start thanking people and listing up things that don't even matter here. What does running a tourney have to do with balancing a patch? I mean like, it's just stupid how your post is build up. I never said you guys don't do shit, I'm saying you need to fix your priorities. It's like repairing your car when your house is burning down. Makes no sense. I stated here that you need to use the opportunity to use this site to actually make the game better and not split it in half, like now.

Conclusion: You post is not relevant to this discussion and you did not read everything properly. Next time, be more useful, instead of going kynesie wall defense and stating useless facts.

[iNcog]

You're something else. I'm not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you go through to stipulate that you haven't been talking shit... but you could go to the Olympics with that kind of practice. Your post is oozing with passive-aggressiveness, don't pretend otherwise.

[princeofkabul]

Legit question: how old are you?

Legit question: How's that relevant? He just wrote nicely and maturily the topic. I wonder "how old are you" if you can't see that. Show some goddamn respect to a guy who started this. You're just merely a Goodspeed's dickrider who got to the staff because of being one. I'm really getting irritated of your recent behavior!

[gustavusadolphus]

I read through all of that and to be quite frank, half of it is just flaming the ESOC team and the other half seems be criticism about the patch itself. I don't mind criticism about the patch itself; on the contrary if people criticize it that gives us something to work with. That's super positive. However your criticism seems pretty mediocre to me, sorry for being a little blunt. I'm just French I guess you'll have to deal with that.

Sorry man, I just can't take you seriously when you make these kinds of posts. In the mean time, you spent 10 minutes typing this up whereas all the people on the ESOC team spent a ridiculous amount of time actually doing work:
- Setting up the new site (because Pro Boards are scam),
- New site back end,
- New site front end,
- Funding the new site,
- Writing the launcher,
- Setting up launcher to work with our rented server,
- Debugging launcher at launch,
- Helping out people with tech issues,
- Setting up launcher to work out for Mac,
- Writing the new maps,
- Writing new maps for team games,
- Creating UI (well that's aiz but yeah I'll count that);
- Actually modding the game for patch,
- Running tournaments,
- casting tournaments, media for tournaments,
- Funding tournaments,
- Setting up betting, running betting, offering $100 to the betting winner (you fucking faggot sir goodspeed),
- Coming up changes for patch, testing,
- Hosting smackdown (i guess zuta isn't staff but THANK YOU ANYWAY MATE),
- winterviews (<3),
- creating UI (had to say it twice because aiz you 2 kewl for school)
- .....

List goes on... that's what the people from the ESOC team (not me, I'm too dumb to do all that) have been working on. Personally, I am extremely thankful for all the work and time and money which has gone into all of that. We're really doing something good for the game. I just can't thank those people enough. I am absolutely, 100%, fucking grateful for those people. It's fucking amazing what those people have done for the game. It's an actual fucking community effort. It's amazing. I love this community when I see things come together.

You just wrote up some post about how things should be done and how we're all idiots... well sorry mate but I'm not going to take you seriously; I will also continue being grateful to the people who have really contributed to AoE3, whether or not you like it.

Nicely put. As an management information systems major I do appreciate the planning that goes into all that is doen here

[stanleywinston]

The patch is not necessarily aimed at pr25+, but ye I can see it ending up that way.
The point is that when it comes to balance there is always disagreement. Any balance patch makes some people happy and some others unhappy.
The best scenario is having the best players to perform the task of choosing what should be included and what not. On top of that there is section in these forums to discuss the changes with the rest of the community.
As someone said, the patch is still a work in progress so more changes are planned. On the other hand, changing too many things has the effect to not only discourage a number of players from playing on the patch, but also to upset the original ideas of the game to the point that each civ doesn't have unique features anymore, as much as they have been proved to be lame in practice. In addition, changing too many things starts a loop for which any time there are balance whines people push for more (unecessary) changes.

With-all-due-respect, but the patch team is peanuts. Most of them do not have any experience apart from 1v1. As I've mentioned before, team players, treaty players do exist in this world. And yes, they play this game too and they also deserve to be heard. I've listed many things that needed to be patched. And now, I'll quote Sir Goodspeed: "I'll be willing to patch this, that and that. But anything else not, because it will have effect 1v1." Alright, thanks for doing that! No. Since when do you decide what gets to be patched? If we ask for this, it's YOUR job to make this come true. Yes, that's how it is. We are the players, you are a developer. You have NO right whatsoever to decide whether something gets patched or not. I agree we need to come to a comprise. But it's not your job to decide what the patch will be like. You're not the supreme dictator. You also mentioned: "We do not want to standardize things." F*ck that man, you're not going to lose uniqueness when you nerf/buff something.

I also noticed that the rest of the team are very GoodSpeed, Garja and H2O sided. Since when do we lock threads that criticize other people? Has this site become a dictatorship? I think so yes. The power that the admins use at this moment is ridiculous. Mr. SomppuKunkku here has got some ciritcism. Yes, it was simply stated. Was there anything wrong with it? No. I've mentioned this before. As a moderator you simply are NOT allowed to be sided. It's your job to be correct and not take sides. Yes, incognoto, I am directly talking to you now. It's not because you're one of the admins right now, you are allowed to ban or delete people from the site just because you're admin. NO! You're an admin because you need to keep the spam threads, heavily sexually topics, swearing or anything else out of this forum. I created this site. I still think that without me, you or any person related to ESOC, would be nothing. Don't forget that. And Ryan, if you're reading this, if you dare lock this thread or delete it, you just confirm what I'm stating above.

Let me clarify one thing. We work in a democratic manner so that there is usually an internal discussion+poll before most of changes, and also we take into consideration where the majority of players stand on the various subjects. However, the EP is a Goodspeed idea. He proposed the project of a balance patch while most of other current members were not so keen to dive into that. So if there was anyone who can give an input in terms of general change philosophy that's Goodspeed, because again the patch was his own idea. It happens tho, in practice, that the minimalistic approach was actually a shared feeling among other team members as well.

Also you're absolutely dead wrong when you say that it is our job to match your requests.
First of all it is not a job at all. We do this in our free time so we do this with the frequence and effort that please us. Nothing of this is due. The only due thing that ESOC literally owe to the community is good tourney delivery, as there are specific money donations for that.
Secondly, we make the changes that we repute good. If people disagree with some of them, we do consider whether or not it is the case to adjust things. If there is no consensus whatsoever then you can simply go and make your own patch.
We don't have nothing to prove to you. As I said we do this in our free time and for the sole passion toward this game. That alone is enough to dismantle most of the criticism like yours here.

Also don't even get me started on the moderation/admin policy. In general, thorughout all the site sections, we have been even too much lenient just because "we are a small community and we must stay united".
You mention somppu. Fine. What was the last time he did anything useful for the community? His contribution to any discussion is generally close to zero, while his flaming and toxic behavior is unmatched. Stop defending him just because it is your friend.
Also, you're again dead wrong when you say that " As a moderator you simply are NOT allowed to be sided. It's your job to be correct and not take sides... ...It's not because you're one of the admins right now, you are allowed to ban or delete people from the site just because you're admin. NO!" It is simply the opposite of what you say, plain and simple.

Finally, with all due respect, let me tell you that you simply didn't create shit. All you did was to put your name on the project and then disappear. All the work was done by others. Take no offense. Bye.

Alright Garja, nice post. I'd love to discuss with you. I don't know if you realize what you're saying here. First of all, your post is just a confirmation of what I stated.

However, the EP is a Goodspeed idea. He proposed the project of a balance patch while most of other current members were not so keen to dive into that. So if there was anyone who can give an input in terms of general change philosophy that's Goodspeed, because again the patch was his own idea. It happens tho, in practice, that the minimalistic approach was actually a shared feeling among other team members as well.

Is this in real life too? Metaphoric example: GoodSpeed: Hey, I want to improve this phone and make it better. Community: The people need a phone that's water resistant. GoodSpeed: No, I never take it near water, but I often go to a volcano, so I'll make it fire resistant. Community: Sure...

That's basically what you're stating here. It makes NO sense. Also, I talked about a patch BEFORE GoodSpeed, so if it were anyone to give input in terms of general game change, it would be me then? No.

Also you're absolutely dead wrong when you say that it is our job to match your requests.
First of all it is not a job at all. We do this in our free time so we do this with the frequence and effort that please us. Nothing of this is due. The only due thing that ESOC literally owe to the community is good tourney delivery, as there are specific money donations for that.
Secondly, we make the changes that we repute good. If people disagree with some of them, we do consider whether or not it is the case to adjust things. If there is no consensus whatsoever then you can simply go and make your own patch.
We don't have nothing to prove to you. As I said we do this in our free time and for the sole passion toward this game. That alone is enough to dismantle most of the criticism like yours here.

First of all, I said 'the match the community's requests' If you don't do this for the community, for who're you doing it? For yourself? That makes no sense. If the community needs a change, and you can give it to them, isn't it selfish not to do it? Like what is this part even. Also, the changes I'm stating are changes that everyone agrees on? Learn to read.

Also don't even get me started on the moderation/admin policy. In general, thorughout all the site sections, we have been even too much lenient just because "we are a small community and we must stay united".
You mention somppu. Fine. What was the last time he did anything useful for the community? His contribution to any discussion is generally close to zero, while his flaming and toxic behavior is unmatched. Stop defending him just because it is your friend.
Also, you're again dead wrong when you say that " As a moderator you simply are NOT allowed to be sided. It's your job to be correct and not take sides... ...It's not because you're one of the admins right now, you are allowed to ban or delete people from the site just because you're admin. NO!" It is simply the opposite of what you say, plain and simple

Hahaha. Really? You like the referee on a football/soccer field to be sided? Good job Garja, good job. You're really a nice human being.

[iNcog]

Legit question: how old are you?

Legit question: How's that relevant? He just wrote nicely and maturily the topic. I wonder "how old are you" if you can't see that. Show some goddamn respect to a guy who started this. You're just merely a Goodspeed's dickrider who got to the staff because of being one. I'm really getting irritated of your recent behavior!

Mostly the way he posts makes me think Stanley is young, that's all. I'm also not sure what your definition of nice and mature is, but I guess we don't have the same standards in that regard.

[stanleywinston]

You're something else. I'm not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you go through to stipulate that you haven't been talking shit... but you could go to the Olympics with that kind of practice. Your post is oozing with passive-aggressiveness, don't pretend otherwise.

I wonder how you're in real life. I'm being mature and nice here? You go on aggressive and offensive. Sure man, I'm just going to ignore you from now on.

[momuuu]

Dictatorship - a place where Ward doesnt get treated like a God.

Theres so much nonsense in that post. Theres very decent moderation here. The one that was called out for his moderation, incog, almost always makes good decisions. Your friend somppu got banned for a reason, a justified one, but maybe your bias made you completely miss it. It sure seems to have cluttered your judgement overall.

Of course its a 1v1 patch, its made by 1v1 players because they wanted a more balanced patch to play on amd play the tourney games on. That doesnt mean they neglect team games at all. Ive seen how they work, its just a fair discussion about balance taking many aspects into consideration. Your balance complaints are all things on their radar for as far as I know, and the only mistake they made is that they buffed dutch in teamgames (although to be fair, its quite a complex case anyhow since dutch is much better in team than 1v1). I think they reached out to treaty players, but those wanted to make their own treaty patch.

Also, the "loads of criticism" is somppu complaining about russia and you having sand in your vagina due to some unfounded grudge against the esoc staff. I have a bit of criticism for you: instead of whining like a spoiled kid, attempt to grow up.