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No Flag IP Man
Skirmisher
Posts: 119

29 Apr 2016, 13:15

Currently, if they make 4 banks, they have 4 vill shipments in age 1 and they also have access to 6 banks from start which is plain stupid.
Also, i dont understand why age 1 card gives better bonus than age 4 card (there are 2 age 1 cards too).. :huh:

What they really needed is to get the xp build bounty for banks increased or reverted to be the same as nilla, not to get loads of buffs which are uncessery and which make them a civ which nobody will agree to play against.
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Germany yemshi
Howdah
Posts: 1700

29 Apr 2016, 13:21

Dutch is very counterable still.
You don't even build 4 banks a lot of times, so that is not that big of a problem. Bank cards are also just vill shipments and ebing in age III in most of the games even 1k food is better.
Garja wrote: Players on the RE are bad, laggers and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better.

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Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 696

29 Apr 2016, 13:27

I agree you. 4 bank dutch already strong lategame. 6 doesnt effect early game just make lategame even better especially with gather rate bonus cards.

I made a suggestion though make a bad card useful for dutch. Got no reply.
4 bank limit
More xp for banks
2 age 1 bank card +1 limit maybe some gather rate bonus too
Dutch East India Company card should give you a bank wagon plus its own bonus effects (-15%food and wood cost for banks). But remove +100% hp bonus.

Dont know how could it work but i would love to rework useless cards.
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Germany yemshi
Howdah
Posts: 1700

29 Apr 2016, 13:32

Nah, Dutch is totally fine.
You just can't let them boom freely; they are kinda like Japan.
I do not see your problem here.
Garja wrote: Players on the RE are bad, laggers and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better.

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Netherlands Jerom
Ninja
Donator 03
Posts: 12357
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

29 Apr 2016, 13:38

I think in 1v1 dutch is still very weak. To be honest, if you are actually tryharding then they are almost unplayable. I dont really know if theres any match up where they have anything over a civ.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Germany yemshi
Howdah
Posts: 1700

29 Apr 2016, 13:43

Ports.
Garja wrote: Players on the RE are bad, laggers and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better.

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Netherlands Jerom
Ninja
Donator 03
Posts: 12357
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

29 Apr 2016, 13:46

On EP? Definitely not.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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No Flag IP Man
Skirmisher
Posts: 119

29 Apr 2016, 13:47

favorite civ for both of you is Dutch which means it is normal that you are going to defend their OPness, therefore i am going to ignore your posts as they are not trustworthy.
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France iNcog
Gendarme
Posts: 9248
ESO: status = SAVED!!1²
Location: LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION

29 Apr 2016, 13:50

I think that Dutch are more competitive than Jerom gives them credit for. ^_^
Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth!
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Netherlands Jerom
Ninja
Donator 03
Posts: 12357
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

29 Apr 2016, 13:56

I think I am also just about the only full time Dutch player, and I've always been very positive about their match ups in the past. The fact of the matter is that everything they can try can be done significantly better by France or Germany in the same way. Theres no point to play dutch. They don't counter any civ better than other civs do, and they're not a solid first tournament pick because they have 3 unwinnable match ups and another 4 extremely hard match ups.

Im not defending that they are not OP. I'm simply complaining about the fact that they are UP in 1v1 which is something else. I'm actually exceptionally annoyed by the state of my favorite civ and it is the number one cause for me to stop playing the game for a while, which happens quite frequently.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Germany yemshi
Howdah
Posts: 1700

29 Apr 2016, 13:57

You are forgetting that they can barely afford 5 huss on their first batch; still need to pay an high cost for their banks; don't really have a good option to gor for Stagecoach/TP's in general; don't have muskets; and despite the fact that they have quite a good eco, they can be kept in base quite easily.
They do have skirms in Age II, they can boom fast, they outboom many civs, that's true. But that's the same with brits.

@Jerom_ 5 Bank FF with steeltraps, double rax and stable and nothing ports can do. Can even play Age II lol. It still takes a lot of time for ports to catch up and at this point you have both cav/inf ups out/ sent religious freedom/ idled a lot of vills because he needs to push out on the map/ 4 mams are quite easily countered aswell/ organ guns can be taken out with ruyters (costinefficient but that's ok)/can still defend a hard rush with skirms because of ports bad eco/defensive base layout (CM aswell depending on the situation).
How do they not beat them?
Garja wrote: Players on the RE are bad, laggers and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better.

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Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 696

29 Apr 2016, 14:00

"increasing bank build XP bounty, a small buff to fortress age unit shipments and decreasing bank limit from 6 to 5. The discovery age "Bank of Rotterdam" and "Bank of Amsterdam" shipments will be restored to give +1 bank limit." Gs wrote it in february 27.
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No Flag IP Man
Skirmisher
Posts: 119

29 Apr 2016, 14:02

Jerom wrote:I think I am also just about the only full time Dutch player, and I've always been very positive about their match ups in the past. The fact of the matter is that everything they can try can be done significantly better by France or Germany in the same way. Theres no point to play dutch. They don't counter any civ better than other civs do, and they're not a solid first tournament pick because they have 3 unwinnable match ups and another 4 extremely hard match ups.

Im not defending that they are not OP. I'm simply complaining about the fact that they are UP in 1v1 which is something else. I'm actually exceptionally annoyed by the state of my favorite civ and it is the number one cause for me to stop playing the game for a while, which happens quite frequently.

lol, they have way better eco than French and German.
They have 3 vills shipment in age 1 (french gets 3.25, german gets 4), they make 1 bank before they age (thats 3.4 vills if PM are researched), and then they send bank wagon which is another 3.4 vills (ferench gets 5 vills, german gets 6 vills.
In total they have:
Dutch: 9.8 vills
French: 8.25 vills
German: 10 vills.
before Dutch ages, they will make their third bank which is another 3.4 vills, and lets not forget that Dutch is getting xp for all those banks which will give them an extra shiment by the time they age while French and German are dependant on tps.
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Germany yemshi
Howdah
Posts: 1700

29 Apr 2016, 14:05

So they get 11 banks? (= or in reality 9/7 because these cards suck as hell in 1v1, I mean you pay a card and 700 res to get ~3.5 vills)
XP buff is okay; fortress shipments would be 5 huss instead of 4=okay.
Garja wrote: Players on the RE are bad, laggers and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better.

User avatar
Germany yemshi
Howdah
Posts: 1700

29 Apr 2016, 14:06

IP Man wrote:
Jerom wrote:I think I am also just about the only full time Dutch player, and I've always been very positive about their match ups in the past. The fact of the matter is that everything they can try can be done significantly better by France or Germany in the same way. Theres no point to play dutch. They don't counter any civ better than other civs do, and they're not a solid first tournament pick because they have 3 unwinnable match ups and another 4 extremely hard match ups.

Im not defending that they are not OP. I'm simply complaining about the fact that they are UP in 1v1 which is something else. I'm actually exceptionally annoyed by the state of my favorite civ and it is the number one cause for me to stop playing the game for a while, which happens quite frequently.

lol, they have way better eco than French and German.
They have 3 vills shipment in age 1 (french gets 3.25, german gets 4), they make 1 bank before they age (thats 3.4 vills if PM are researched), and then they send bank wagon which is another 3.4 vills (ferench gets 5 vills, german gets 6 vills.
In total they have:
Dutch: 9.8 vills
French: 8.25 vills
German: 10 vills.
before Dutch ages, they will make their third bank which is another 3.4 vills, and lets not forget that Dutch is getting xp for all those banks which will give them an extra shiment by the time they age while French and German are dependant on tps.

Not like Dutch needs to invest into that more though. They don't have 2 falcs aswell. But they have slightly more eco if there are no TP's out.
Garja wrote: Players on the RE are bad, laggers and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better.

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No Flag IP Man
Skirmisher
Posts: 119

29 Apr 2016, 14:07

yemshi wrote:You are forgetting that they can barely afford 5 huss on their first batch; still need to pay an high cost for their banks; don't really have a good option to gor for Stagecoach/TP's in general; don't have muskets; and despite the fact that they have quite a good eco, they can be kept in base quite easily.
They do have skirms in Age II, they can boom fast, they outboom many civs, that's true. But that's the same with brits.

Lol, muskets arent even strong, i will take a skirm over a musket any day.
Yes, they will be kept in base, but thats not an issue because most of their units cost gold which is trickled by banks.
On ESOC maps there are 3 hunts in your base anyways, which means by the time you need to push, you will have 50 skirm/50 ruyter.
And about the 5 huss batch, you need skill to be able to make 5 huss easily.

You think you cant take tps because you want to make tps and banks which is not possible.
try 700w-600w with only 1 bank and then with the wood from the tps build another bank and ship bank wagon. (You will be able to do 2 rax/2 stable batches with the eco.)
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No Flag IP Man
Skirmisher
Posts: 119

29 Apr 2016, 14:11

yemshi wrote:So they get 11 banks? (= or in reality 9/7 because these cards suck as hell in 1v1, I mean you pay a card and 700 res to get ~3.5 vills)
XP buff is okay; fortress shipments would be 5 huss instead of 4=okay.

They also have 400 wood age up option unlike alot of other civs who need to send 700w 600w and still nobody complains about them being OP.
Ask yourself why.
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Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 711

29 Apr 2016, 14:15

I don't play Dutch much, but i think many players severly underestimate colo agenda. You have skim/huss combo in age 2 + imp cards. Its completely viable...
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Germany yemshi
Howdah
Posts: 1700

29 Apr 2016, 14:16

IP Man wrote:
yemshi wrote:You are forgetting that they can barely afford 5 huss on their first batch; still need to pay an high cost for their banks; don't really have a good option to gor for Stagecoach/TP's in general; don't have muskets; and despite the fact that they have quite a good eco, they can be kept in base quite easily.
They do have skirms in Age II, they can boom fast, they outboom many civs, that's true. But that's the same with brits.

Lol, muskets arent even strong, i will take a skirm over a musket any day.
Yes, they will be kept in base, but thats not an issue because most of their units cost gold which is trickled by banks.
On ESOC maps there are 3 hunts in your base anyways, which means by the time you need to push, you will have 50 skirm/50 ruyter.
And about the 5 huss batch, you need skill to be able to make 5 huss easily.

You think you cant take tps because you want to make tps and banks which is not possible.
try 700w-600w with only 1 bank and then with the wood from the tps build another bank and ship bank wagon. (You will be able to do 2 rax/2 stable batches with the eco.)

I'm am experimenting with TP's atm.Vs aggressive civs it can be quite succesful if you have an side route like on Deccan; you can hold vs france if you use the xp from the TP's for some 13/18 pike build with skirms but vs ger you simply have no chance at all. Dopp/Uhlan kills Dutch in Age II quite easily. You are eventually gonna age up with a lost trade route and 4 banks or so but then you really need to hope that he does not go for stagecoach(which is unlikely, especially since you upgraded it). Ger is still a hard counter.

As far as I see they have decent chances against Brits/Ports/Sioux/Russia/ maybe Iro and loose to the rest. That is okayish if not bad.
Garja wrote: Players on the RE are bad, laggers and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better.

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Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 696

29 Apr 2016, 14:34

German op. You cant compare any civs to german. They lose only vs aztec i think. Other civs comletely beatable with dutch (even on 4 bank re patch).
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No Flag IP Man
Skirmisher
Posts: 119

29 Apr 2016, 14:39

yemshi wrote:
IP Man wrote:
yemshi wrote:You are forgetting that they can barely afford 5 huss on their first batch; still need to pay an high cost for their banks; don't really have a good option to gor for Stagecoach/TP's in general; don't have muskets; and despite the fact that they have quite a good eco, they can be kept in base quite easily.
They do have skirms in Age II, they can boom fast, they outboom many civs, that's true. But that's the same with brits.

Lol, muskets arent even strong, i will take a skirm over a musket any day.
Yes, they will be kept in base, but thats not an issue because most of their units cost gold which is trickled by banks.
On ESOC maps there are 3 hunts in your base anyways, which means by the time you need to push, you will have 50 skirm/50 ruyter.
And about the 5 huss batch, you need skill to be able to make 5 huss easily.

You think you cant take tps because you want to make tps and banks which is not possible.
try 700w-600w with only 1 bank and then with the wood from the tps build another bank and ship bank wagon. (You will be able to do 2 rax/2 stable batches with the eco.)

I'm am experimenting with TP's atm.Vs aggressive civs it can be quite succesful if you have an side route like on Deccan; you can hold vs france if you use the xp from the TP's for some 13/18 pike build with skirms but vs ger you simply have no chance at all. Dopp/Uhlan kills Dutch in Age II quite easily. You are eventually gonna age up with a lost trade route and 4 banks or so but then you really need to hope that he does not go for stagecoach(which is unlikely, especially since you upgraded it). Ger is still a hard counter.

As far as I see they have decent chances against Brits/Ports/Sioux/Russia/ maybe Iro and loose to the rest. That is okayish if not bad.

currently they beat brits/ports/russia/ azzy (maybe?) and india. they have hard time vs otto, japan and sioux, but it is in dutch favor. they are 50/50 vs french, and they just lose vs china, german
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Germany yemshi
Howdah
Posts: 1700

29 Apr 2016, 14:41

Need the great MU-table of Jerom again.
And @diarouga
Garja wrote: Players on the RE are bad, laggers and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better.

User avatar
Greece BrookG
Lancer
Posts: 572
ESO: BrookG

29 Apr 2016, 14:42

The point is if you make all those banks is you don't have military buildings, or few at least. You need to wall to counter the enemy unit spam. Dutch' FF is slow compared to French or German, even their semi.
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Germany yemshi
Howdah
Posts: 1700

29 Apr 2016, 14:43

=results in a more likely 1k wood (eevn if that is a very good card)
Garja wrote: Players on the RE are bad, laggers and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better.

User avatar
Greece BrookG
Lancer
Posts: 572
ESO: BrookG

29 Apr 2016, 14:49

yemshi wrote:
IP Man wrote:
yemshi wrote:You are forgetting that they can barely afford 5 huss on their first batch; still need to pay an high cost for their banks; don't really have a good option to gor for Stagecoach/TP's in general; don't have muskets; and despite the fact that they have quite a good eco, they can be kept in base quite easily.
They do have skirms in Age II, they can boom fast, they outboom many civs, that's true. But that's the same with brits.

Lol, muskets arent even strong, i will take a skirm over a musket any day.
Yes, they will be kept in base, but thats not an issue because most of their units cost gold which is trickled by banks.
On ESOC maps there are 3 hunts in your base anyways, which means by the time you need to push, you will have 50 skirm/50 ruyter.
And about the 5 huss batch, you need skill to be able to make 5 huss easily.

You think you cant take tps because you want to make tps and banks which is not possible.
try 700w-600w with only 1 bank and then with the wood from the tps build another bank and ship bank wagon. (You will be able to do 2 rax/2 stable batches with the eco.)

I'm am experimenting with TP's atm.Vs aggressive civs it can be quite succesful if you have an side route like on Deccan; you can hold vs france if you use the xp from the TP's for some 13/18 pike build with skirms but vs ger you simply have no chance at all. Dopp/Uhlan kills Dutch in Age II quite easily. You are eventually gonna age up with a lost trade route and 4 banks or so but then you really need to hope that he does not go for stagecoach(which is unlikely, especially since you upgraded it). Ger is still a hard counter.

As far as I see they have decent chances against Brits/Ports/Sioux/Russia/ maybe Iro and loose to the rest. That is okayish if not bad.

I saw one do a 3-4 tp FI with dutch+church upgrade. Otherwise tps take a lot of time

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