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by Goodspeed
25 Jul 2021, 21:46
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:@Goodspeed
But the technical reply I wrote clarifies both how the policy network works and that artificial neural networks do store some patterns created based on processing previous games.
Yes the disagreement seems to be about whether or not human intuition is similarly based on the rec .....
by Goodspeed
25 Jul 2021, 20:32
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Sure. It would be nice though if you left your preconceptions at the door next time and responded to what I'm actually saying. You often seem to argue against positions I never expressed in our discussions
by Goodspeed
25 Jul 2021, 16:44
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Then why use that word, "magic"?
I don't think I brought it up first,
You definitely did. I would never have described either AG or our intuition as "magic", nor would I describe anything else as such.

Subconscious processing in humans is basically prepar .....
by Goodspeed
25 Jul 2021, 16:06
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Then why use that word, "magic"?

I wrote:The reason I keep saying it's similar to human intuition is that there is no way to translate the policy network's initial judgments to a statement like "this move is good because x, y, and z". The decision tree it created based on its trai .....
by Goodspeed
25 Jul 2021, 15:39
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

I've explained why I compare it to human intuition. Our disagreement there is obviously not about how the program works, but about how human intuition works. You think it's magical, whereas I think it's a process that relies on [the recognition of] stored patterns, hence the metaphor. So because I k .....

by Goodspeed
25 Jul 2021, 15:24
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

That is not in any way a response to me. You keep arguing against this made up position that the policy network is somehow magical, or a conscious thinking entity. That obviously isn't my position. Also, it's surprising to me that you apparently think human intuition is "magic".

I wrote:I'm .....
by Goodspeed
25 Jul 2021, 09:19
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:There is no intuition there, there is no thinking entity there in the circuits, it's a filtering algorithm, which ranks the best moves based on probabilites, estimated based on the value policy that already scanned the table. Even the authors of AlphaGo state very clearly that the softwa .....
by Goodspeed
24 Jul 2021, 16:06
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:Policy network is a method of truncating results from the Monte Carlo tree search at a certain game state and replacing the subtree below with a function that approximates the implications of picking a certain move. It's a method used to narrow down the search results, in order to speed .....
by Goodspeed
23 Jul 2021, 15:08
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:No it's not. Monte carlo search uses random playouts as a way to more efficiently discard entire nodes in the tree (so it still explores every move, just very efficiently) whereas AG's choices about which moves to explore are based on previous experience, and most of the .....
by Goodspeed
23 Jul 2021, 08:52
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Only in theory. And this is why I said that everything can, in theory, be solved by maths alone. Much like with Go, though, it's just not realistic or even worth trying. Go, like many other tasks humans engage in, is too complex for any finite number of supercomputers to .....
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 20:09
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

I'm only disagreeing with the statement that AI could never get there, and am trying to explain why machine learning is considered a big step forward in the field.

What AG was proof of concept of is that computers can mimic human intuition through machine learning. Of course it's not proof that we ma .....

by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 19:43
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Also @scarm

Dolan wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Dolan wrote:Also how did people make such decisions before maths was invented/discovered (depending on what's your position on this question).
Let's imagine a situation in ancient Sumer, before numbers were invented for the purpose of keeping track of property a .....
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 17:07
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:Also how did people make such decisions before maths was invented/discovered (depending on what's your position on this question).
Let's imagine a situation in ancient Sumer, before numbers were invented for the purpose of keeping track of property and making contracts.
How did they reason .....
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 17:05
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:You estimate the return on investment using whatever reward system programmed into you [...].
You decide on the subject based on [...] whatever else your reward system tells you to value.
This is the part that's not very clear to me: how is any value programmed into your re .....
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 16:11
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

You estimate the return on investment using whatever reward system programmed into you, taking opportunity cost into account. If it's a worthwhile investment you do it.

You decide on the subject based on what will sell best or what you would enjoy writing about or whatever else your reward system tel .....

by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 15:38
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

scarm wrote:Are Go and Chess actually "very complex tasks" though? They are mathematically solvable games in theory, humans just lack the computing power to do so.
Everything is mathematically solvable in theory. Go is plenty complex as a proof of concept for machine learning. .....
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 15:35
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

This is not different from humans. We are programmed to mimic the behavior of our peers, which you could obviously program computers to do as well, in theory. I get that the field isn't there yet but the claim that it could never get there is shortsighted imo. Humans are not that special.
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 14:43
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:And neither can they ever become a general purpose AI, since that requires having embodied cognition. They can only get good at tasks that lend themselves well to being automated.
So basically very specialised tasks that require no actual intelligence.
I think it's very possible there are .....
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 14:29
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Yeah that's a great way to make up for the lack of efficiency. Whereas AlphaGo needs a million self-play games to get to beginner-intermediate level, we get there with a few hundred.
But the method of learning is still similar, and the fact that it's able to outperform a human brain at a very complex .....

by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 14:01
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:the "instructions" AlphaGo wrote for itself by playing against itself are not only impossible for a human to replicate, they even outperform the instructions embedded in human brains at a very complex task.
Source for this?
They outperform humans at Go, and no hum .....
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 12:18
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

The way we learn is equally baked into our systems. We, too, have a "baked in" ability to store previous trials and errors and use that memory to make better decisions in the future. The way our neurons interact is shaped by these trials and errors.

It's somewhat similar to that worm game, .....
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 10:59
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:Idk about that part of brains working in the same way. I mean, neurons aren't transistors or logical gates that only have two states.
Neural networks are called that for a reason; They are modeled after our brains. Anyway it doesn't matter if there's 2 states or 50. Anything can be rewrit .....
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 10:56
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:I mean even multiplying 38404856 by 3453463 using a pocket calculator will beat a human too.
Your pocket calculator follows pre-defined instructions written by humans. The Go AI develop what can easily be called "intuition" about which moves are strongest without any human input .....
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 10:52
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

That's how our brains work too. It's neither embarrassing nor "weak shit" that they were able to replicate that
by Goodspeed
22 Jul 2021, 10:34
Forum: Real-life Discussion
Topic: European politics
Replies: 1201
Views: 16163
Flag: Netherlands

Re: European politics

Dolan wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:
Dolan wrote:And we live in the age of AI and other hipster "big tech" memes
Well, what has the AI solved so far? Beating humans at Go and ...? Weak shit.
The impressive part is the way that it learned how to do that, not necessarily the feat itself (then ag .....

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