Live Now! GENESIS Main Event

[gibson]

Not sure how well Maru's insane micro would translate to this game. Ofc if he try harded he'd probably be better than anyone currently playing but I doubt hed be better than other top sc2 players.

[Goodspeed]

Maru shmaru

[iNcog]

Maru shmaru

fite me

[RefluxSemantic]

Not sure how well Maru's insane micro would translate to this game. Ofc if he try harded he'd probably be better than anyone currently playing but I doubt hed be better than other top sc2 players.

Im just a maru fanboy. The way he plays is very unique to say the least. Not just the whole 4th race bit, but even in terms of mechanics its pretty different from the typical players. When you watch his pov its like pure refined chaos. Thats the best way to describe it imo. He doesnt even really use control groups for his army, at least not very consistently.

I can imagine that sort of playstyle working quite well for aoe4, which seems rather 'chaotic' to me. Id imagine Maru to shine in being on top of all the chaos thats happening.

[gibson]

Well he just has better mechanics/micro than everyone else. Wouldn't work well in this game.

[n0el]

i think maru would be absolutely insane in age4. like @RefluxSemantic said, hes the master of chaos and this game is very much chaos

[aaryngend]

It seems like you're putting Mista on a bit of a pedestal here, mostly based on his performance playing dead games. Obviously his achievements as an RTS player, while certainly more impressive than anyone here excluding H2O, are nowhere near comparable to Viper's, who is the GOAT in a highly competitive RTS. If Mista was as talented as you seem to think, what was he doing playing AoM and AoEO?

The fact that Viper was able to practice full time is a big deal for sure, but it seems likely Mista still got a lot more total playtime. From their gameplay I got that impression, since Mista's builds seemed more refined (g1 for example was a full-on build order win), and Viper didn't even know he could build siege out of that English castle age landmark.

Also, Mista looked weaker in his QF and SF series than Viper did. ML had an easy game 5 on boulder bay against Mista and lost to a predictable siege push, and Vortix threw an even more unloseable game on that same map. No one really looked great in this tournament except Viper imo, who was never in a position to lose a series.

I wouldn't sell AoM too short. The game may not be that competitive or active but some of the players in it are still highly skilled.
One of the guys who did nothing but play AoM for a couple of years (Magyar) and was easily considered to be the best player became a LoL pro, consistently playing for decent EU teams over the span of 6 years. I'm sure people who follow LoL know about Vizicsacsi.
TheMista is not just a good but a very good player. He didn't play for very long and it wasn't his plan anyway. He wanted to tryhard SC2 for a year or two before farming (IRL) took over.
His SC2 career ended abruptly because of cheating accusations.

Same goes for 4Servant from AgeSanctuary who played mostly Dawn of War. There were other very skilled players that aoe player don't know about.
I used to have some contact with them in early SC2 and 4Servant was consistently doing well in Tournaments and beating one tough guy after another.

Dunno what you are trying to say with this. TheViper also 'sucked' in aoe3 because he didn't seriously practice it.
Serral is a better player than LucifroN, VortiX and MarineLord combined. Him only having a 71% winrate in aoe4 doesn't change this fact.

If everybody and their mom tryharded aoe4, you could bet that a korean will be at the top.

[gibson]

The dont think anyone is saying themista isnt very good, but rather the viper is just better judging by both the results here and their respective pedigree.

[Astaroth]

Exactly. I think from the information we currently have, arguing that TheMista is a better RTS player than TheViper overall is just a really baseless claim.

Of course it could theoretically still happen that Mista will eventually win an Aoe4 tournament or even end up being better than the Viper, but that's pure speculation.

[aaryngend]

No one here argued that Mista is clearly better than TheViper, Marco is just saying that the discrepancy isn't as big as you guys make it out to be. Maybe he thinks that TheMista is slightly better? I mean what if he really thinks that? It's not too farfetched or 'being out of touch with reality' considering the circumstances.

The comparison is stupid to begin with. Let's see how good Viper will be if he has to work on a farm and plays RTS games on the side and Mista instead being the streamer who has a huge following and is playing aoe2 full-time.

[Goodspeed]

No one here argued that Mista is clearly better than TheViper, Marco is just saying that the discrepancy isn't as big as you guys make it out to be. Maybe he thinks that TheMista is slightly better? I mean what if he really thinks that? It's not too farfetched or 'being out of touch with reality' considering the circumstances.

He was arguing Mista is the more complete RTS player, and that his AoE4 results show more talent than Viper's, which I disagreed with. If I thought that Mista isn't very good, why would I have said his RTS achievements are more impressive than anyone here excluding H2O?

The thing I called out of touch with reality, quite explicitly so I'm not sure how you misread that, is calling him a better RTS player than Viper, who is the GOAT in a highly competitive RTS with winnings totaling $190,000.

[Goodspeed]

Of course it could theoretically still happen that Mista will eventually win an Aoe4 tournament or even end up being better than the Viper, but that's pure speculation.

I guess it will depend on how Viper divides his playtime between AoE2 and 4. If he fully commits to AoE4 I don't see players like Mista ever catching up to him. In that case, at least for a while it will be between him, ML and Hera probably, until some new kid prodigy pops up.

[blackwidow]

Dunno what you are trying to say with this. TheViper also 'sucked' in aoe3 because he didn't seriously practice it.
Serral is a better player than LucifroN, VortiX and MarineLord combined. Him only having a 71% winrate in aoe4 doesn't change this fact.

If everybody and their mom tryharded aoe4, you could bet that a korean will be at the top.

Not saying much other than a response to what would happen if Maru played.
Serral playing some aoe and sitting on 71% winrate while grinding sc2 to top a group with Maru in it is a good indication of what would happen (he'd clearly be competitive to say the least). Funny how you interpret 71% winrate at 73 games as "sucking" though, I was actually posting because I thought it impressive ^^

I'm not talking about the obvious fact that rts GOATs dedicating themselves to aoe4 will do best. That doesn't even seem like a discussion anyway.

[aaryngend]

He was arguing Mista is the more complete RTS player, and that his AoE4 results show more talent than Viper's, which I disagreed with. If I thought that Mista isn't very good, why would I have said his RTS achievements are more impressive than anyone here excluding H2O?

You are right in saying that no one said that 'Mista isn't very good', I just think that he is better than you give him credit for. Why would you exclude H2O?

The thing I called out of touch with reality, quite explicitly so I'm not sure how you misread that, is calling him a better RTS player than Viper, who is the GOAT in a highly competitive RTS with winnings totaling $190,000.

Prize money doesn't matter as that depends on a game's funding. Is Viper still the GOAT in aoe2?? He was for a while but right now there is hardly anyone who is miles ahead of others.

TheMista had a far harder road to the finals than Viper. Would Viper still win this tournament if their seeding had been switched? Could Viper beat MarineLorD and VortiX in a tournament setting?

I just think that that 'out of touch with reality' line is too harsh. I'm also not agreeing with Marco and it's very likely that some of his opinions are downright wrong, but you act like he brought forth the falsest arguments ever.
Looking at past accomplishments Viper is miles ahead of Mista but that's only because Viper is a full-time pro and streamer in a more competitive game who is competing nonstop for years already and Mista checks in and out all the time. As I said before, hard to compare.

Be better at reading tbh

I know how to read, tyvm

Not saying much other than a response to what would happen if Maru played.
Serral playing some aoe and sitting on 71% winrate while grinding sc2 to top a group with Maru in it is a good indication of what would happen (he'd clearly be competitive to say the least). Funny how you interpret 71% winrate at 73 games as "sucking" though, I was actually posting because I thought it impressive ^^

I'm not talking about the obvious fact that rts GOATs dedicating themselves to aoe4 will do best. That doesn't even seem like a discussion anyway.

Loool sorry, I totally misinerpreted your post then!
I thought you were trying to say that Maru would do worse than Serral because Serral topped his group in Dreamhack and isn't even that high on the aoe4 quickmatch ladder.

[Goodspeed]

He was arguing Mista is the more complete RTS player, and that his AoE4 results show more talent than Viper's, which I disagreed with. If I thought that Mista isn't very good, why would I have said his RTS achievements are more impressive than anyone here excluding H2O?

You are right in saying that no one said that 'Mista isn't very good', I just think that he is better than you give him credit for. Why would you exclude H2O?

Because I think H2O's RTS record is more impressive than Mista's. AoE3 was at the height of its competitiveness around the time he won that WCG. AoE3 during that period was more competitive than any of the games Mista was best at.

The thing I called out of touch with reality, quite explicitly so I'm not sure how you misread that, is calling him a better RTS player than Viper, who is the GOAT in a highly competitive RTS with winnings totaling $190,000.

Prize money doesn't matter as that depends on a game's funding. Is Viper still the GOAT in aoe2?? He was for a while but right now there is hardly anyone who is miles ahead of others.

Yes of course he's still the GOAT, but why does that even matter? Even if he had won just a couple of S-tier tournaments in AoE2, his RTS record would already be more impressive than Mista's. Mista is a great RTS player but there have been many great RTS players. Why do we feel the need to compare him to GOATs? Because, as post-2008 AoE3 players, to protect our own egos we overvalue achievements in dead games?

TheMista had a far harder road to the finals than Viper. Would Viper still win this tournament if their seeding had been switched? Could Viper beat MarineLorD and VortiX in a tournament setting?

I don't see why not? He beat the guy that beat both of them quite handily.

Looking at past accomplishments Viper is miles ahead of Mista but that's only because Viper is a full-time pro and streamer in a more competitive game who is competing nonstop for years already and Mista checks in and out all the time. As I said before, hard to compare.

Viper is a full-time pro and streamer because he's the GOAT. Not just anyone can make a living playing AoE2. Anyway yes he's miles ahead, that has been my entire point.

[n0el]

Let's just break this down into the simplest terms. One is a clash of clans player and one is a Forge of Empires player. Clearly Forge>Clash so the outcome is natural.