STARVATION fun tournament (with $100 prize pot!)

[sirmusket]

Baning Japan and China is not a good idea at all...
HOst the tourney on EP..

In other words all civs suffer no hunt and Japan plays as if its a standard game LOL, still fair?

[P i k i l i c]

Thanks @sirmusket

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so I assume RM => nilla and RM2 => TWC

[deleted_user0]

i understand the banning of japan, but not sure I that i get the ban on china, though there is a point to it. But I would also strongly suggest banning india (needs wood for villagers, so its a strong adventage) and dutch (needs coin for vils and it can make banks so they can just go mercs very easy)

yes but how will dutch/india get there food to age without having to spend enormous amounts of wood on mills etc, and then having to spend that little food into cows/sheep etc , its not as good as it sounds ive already tested dutch/india and honestly there not great , china has free livestock and 300 wood start therefore bit overpowered.

well everyone has to make mills n stuff to get food. but on a map that has berries, dutch and india will barely hampered, because they can just get their vills at normal gather rate, and are only slightly slower to get the food. which isnt a big deal cuz everyone is slower. also because they don't use food for vils, they can lost much longer with the berries before having to invest huge amounts of wood into mills.

also sioux (china too in age3) can send hunts, though I guess other civs can send livestock, so perhaps thats not a big deal.

also iro has travois which can be made into an early farm, which gives both food + the same livestock potential that china has, so arguably theyre more op than china for this.

i mean its just something to consider, the nature of this tournament is such that it will be hard to balance, so perhaps you shouldnt try it too much, but atleast you should be aware of it.

[zoom]

i understand the banning of japan, but not sure I that i get the ban on china, though there is a point to it. But I would also strongly suggest banning india (needs wood for villagers, so its a strong adventage) and dutch (needs coin for vils and it can make banks so they can just go mercs very easy)

yes but how will dutch/india get there food to age without having to spend enormous amounts of wood on mills etc, and then having to spend that little food into cows/sheep etc , its not as good as it sounds ive already tested dutch/india and honestly there not great , china has free livestock and 300 wood start therefore bit overpowered.

You should know by now that Chinese get everything for free.

[EAGLEMUT]

Sounds like fun, already signed up.

Balance might be tricky, but I will reserve my judgment on which civ is op until we actually try to play some games. Imo China doesn't seem that much over the line, but Japan certainly should be either banned or somehow nerfed (ban orchards?), since they don't really care about hunts. Perhaps China's starting livestock could be removed from the starved maps and their starting crates decreased or something (that is additional work though).

Thanks @sirmusket

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so I assume RM => nilla and RM2 => TWC

Correct.

[Gichtenlord]

You should remove berry bushes too

[deleted_user]

Inb4 aklak returns and wins with crazy livestock pen shenanigans.

[forgrin]

I'd love to do some more map editing to get the balance in line but unfortunately just removing the hunts is about the end of my expertise in c++ :p

[forgrin]

i understand the banning of japan, but not sure I that i get the ban on china, though there is a point to it. But I would also strongly suggest banning india (needs wood for villagers, so its a strong adventage) and dutch (needs coin for vils and it can make banks so they can just go mercs very easy)

The main problem I see with China is that you could essentially spam livestock pens (villages) early and have a massive powerspike earlier than any other civ. By sending 300w first and a decent treasure or two you could have 4 pens down at like 3mins (which also count as houses saving you more wood). I will agree that I didn't think about the balance too much though.

PS my thought on Dutch/India is that they can just be counterpicked to non-berry maps, then they arguably have a disadvantage since making mills etc is worse for them (esp India which doesn't have edible livestock).

[KINGofOsmane]

that moment when you think its an normal tourney and then its an troll lol

[zoom]

i understand the banning of japan, but not sure I that i get the ban on china, though there is a point to it. But I would also strongly suggest banning india (needs wood for villagers, so its a strong adventage) and dutch (needs coin for vils and it can make banks so they can just go mercs very easy)

The main problem I see with China is that you could essentially spam livestock pens (villages) early and have a massive powerspike earlier than any other civ. By sending 300w first and a decent treasure or two you could have 4 pens down at like 3mins (which also count as houses saving you more wood). I will agree that I didn't think about the balance too much though.

PS my thought on Dutch/India is that they can just be counterpicked to non-berry maps, then they arguably have a disadvantage since making mills etc is worse for them (esp India which doesn't have edible livestock).

A Village is not a Livestock pen. In fact, Chinese might be worse than most other civilizations. I suspect you are misjudging the respective civilizations' strength in such a scenario, and suggest that you carry out some testing prior to the event. My prediction is British or Dutch wins – possibly even over Japanese.

[P i k i l i c]

Do not Chinese vills gather slower on livestock than other civs' vills ?

[zoom]

No. Iroquois and Chinese livestock fattens at half the regular rate before the Fortress Age, however. On EP2.0, Chinese livestock fattens at one quarter of the regular rate before the Fortress Age.

[Jaeger]

@forgrin

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I love this idea so much thank you!!!! However, please please could you modify the shipping hunts rules a little bit? I think EVERYBODY will just play sioux.

[Jaeger]

i understand the banning of japan, but not sure I that i get the ban on china, though there is a point to it. But I would also strongly suggest banning india (needs wood for villagers, so its a strong adventage) and dutch (needs coin for vils and it can make banks so they can just go mercs very easy)

+1 India definitely sounds OP

[forgrin]

@forgrin

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I love this idea so much thank you!!!! However, please please could you modify the shipping hunts rules a little bit? I think EVERYBODY will just play sioux.

Good idea, I might ban something like 15 bison (probs OP). However nats also don't get factories, 2nd tier market ups etc so their ecos are naturally weaker especially with no hunts, so gotta keep it somewhat balanced

[Jaeger]

@forgrin

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I love this idea so much thank you!!!! However, please please could you modify the shipping hunts rules a little bit? I think EVERYBODY will just play sioux.

Good idea, I might ban something like 15 bison (probs OP). However nats also don't get factories, 2nd tier market ups etc so their ecos are naturally weaker especially with no hunts, so gotta keep it somewhat balanced

Right, I just think people might rush you with sioux, they could be gathering from just hunts for quite a while from their shipments while you're building mills. I'd also watch out for india and dutch, food will now probably be the slowest resource in the game until you get upgrades. Also thank you for organizing this, I'm sure everyone wants to see events like this. I've been waiting for this ever since the aiz vs mitoe smackdown where they each had 10 CDB, mills and plantations, but mitoe resigned when the game could've gone on for another 30 minutes :(

[Hazza54321]

I wouldnt allow india

[pecelot]

I think it can be pretty similar to Settler Massacre scenarios, in which there are no resources on a map whatsoever. Asian civs are rather strong there due to their cheaper paddies and Japan shipping cherry orchards, but I remember that Iroquois are considered the strongest I believe because of their travois and rush abilities. I saw @Aizamk

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playing it like a year ago on his stream, doing a 1v2 against some lieutenants/captains, maybe he can share his valuable experience before the tournament itself. Generally, I find the idea very neat, I've always thought of some fun games with some obstacles, like no shipments, no Fortress Age, only Discovery/Colonial Age shipments allowed and such. I think I'm gonna sign up just in case, as I may not be available to play in time.

[momuuu]

india still needs food though. Its probably going to turn out that mercs are stronk.

[Jaeger]

india still needs food though. Its probably going to turn out that mercs are stronk.

Yeah imo we shouldnt allow mercs, because we all wanna see those 10 unit fights where one mistake can cost you the game because it takes you 5 minutes to gather the res for another 10 units. Else it will just be an outlaw fest in age 2

[sirmusket]

i understand the banning of japan, but not sure I that i get the ban on china, though there is a point to it. But I would also strongly suggest banning india (needs wood for villagers, so its a strong adventage) and dutch (needs coin for vils and it can make banks so they can just go mercs very easy)

yes but how will dutch/india get there food to age without having to spend enormous amounts of wood on mills etc, and then having to spend that little food into cows/sheep etc , its not as good as it sounds ive already tested dutch/india and honestly there not great , china has free livestock and 300 wood start therefore bit overpowered.

well everyone has to make mills n stuff to get food. but on a map that has berries, dutch and india will barely hampered, because they can just get their vills at normal gather rate, and are only slightly slower to get the food. which isnt a big deal cuz everyone is slower. also because they don't use food for vils, they can lost much longer with the berries before having to invest huge amounts of wood into mills.

also sioux (china too in age3) can send hunts, though I guess other civs can send livestock, so perhaps thats not a big deal.

also iro has travois which can be made into an early farm, which gives both food + the same livestock potential that china has, so arguably theyre more op than china for this.

i mean its just something to consider, the nature of this tournament is such that it will be hard to balance, so perhaps you shouldnt try it too much, but atleast you should be aware of it.

The fact is India needs to pay 400 wood for the slowest gathering means of food, THEY CANNONT BUILD LIVESTOCK ofc therefore they will only be able to age to 3 super late, sioux after 9 bison, 15 bison imo can just lame standard cough bowriders so there quite lame, however we can not say a certain civ is lame, OP, unfair, more favoured thats just nature of tourny and will bring in new strats, ofc japan however is banned because there not effected at all by these rules , unless you eliminate cherry orchards , then they would only be decent on the berrie maps.

[sirmusket]

Honestly I would allow India it will take like 1.2k wood to spend early to get decent food rates, they dont have lifestock and dont have factories there naturally going to be weaker so I dont see the problem, you still need to gather and reach 3rd age 2nd age, i mean lets put it this way, India is going to hit age 2 at like 7 min minimum honestly unless its the berry map, people like sioux can already have 4 axe riders 10 br in ur base at 8 min whats India going to do, people should be speaking more of banning 9 bison, 15 bison then banning India imo

[Zhanson10]

I really like this idea, although some rules seem super duper random, such as no stagecoach and no improved mercenaries

[Kaiserklein]

adv mercs makes a huge difference when you merc. And without food obviously people will often merc.

Why ban jap though ? They have 10k free of berries but nothing to shrine on the map