EP7: Map update feedback

[Rikikipu]

Hello,
As you may have seen, some updates have been done to the maps for EP7.

- UIx ESOC Lumaco: added new map by @Rikikipu!
- UIx ESOC Herald Island: changed terrain type to fix bright issues, added buildable terrain type on top of the map, disabled docks.
- UIx ESOC Mendocino: reduced TC distance between members of each team.
- UIx ESOC Manchac: added land terrain on top of TCs.
- UIx ESOC Iowa: revamped entire map, removed lakes.
- UIx ESOC Wadmalaw: remove cliffs, should smooth the map flow.
- UIx ESOC Tassili: changed map design a bit.
- UIx ESOC Thar Desert: added more starting trees, made them and the starting mine closer to the TC.
- UIx ESOC Kamchatka: starting treasure is now always a free macaque, slightly increased number of treasures on map.
- UIx ESOC Tibet: starting treasure is now always a free macaque.

After a couple of days/weeks to try those changes, what do you think about it? Should we revert back some changes ? Would you like to see some more changes ? Also what do you think about Lumaco ?
Glad to hear what you think for improving in the next ep update.

[Kaiserklein]

- UIx ESOC Lumaco: added new map by @Rikikipu!

It's not in the standard maps set so I didn't get to play it, I'll try to remember to host with it

- UIx ESOC Herald Island: changed terrain type to fix bright issues, added buildable terrain type on top of the map, disabled docks.

I don't care much about the brightness but it's definitely better now on the "bridge" part of the map

- UIx ESOC Mendocino: reduced TC distance between members of each team.

Didn't get to play it in team, but if tcs are closer it's definitely better

- UIx ESOC Manchac: added land terrain on top of TCs.

Yep it's better

- UIx ESOC Iowa: revamped entire map, removed lakes.

Much better obviously, it was terrible with the chokes

- UIx ESOC Wadmalaw: remove cliffs, should smooth the map flow.

Same as Lumaco

- UIx ESOC Tassili: changed map design a bit.

It's better yeah

- UIx ESOC Thar Desert: added more starting trees, made them and the starting mine closer to the TC.

Yeah the trees are better now

- UIx ESOC Kamchatka: starting treasure is now always a free macaque, slightly increased number of treasures on map.

I really like both players having a free monkey like on Mongolia with the free scout, and it's more fair obviously

- UIx ESOC Tibet: starting treasure is now always a free macaque.

Same

[chronique]

Every maps looking good to me (except Lumaco becouse is not standar at all).

[Jerimuno]

should add some closer (and more i guess) starting trees on jebel musa as well, just like you did on thar desert

[Jerimuno]

also on wadmalaw the description of Hazza's treasure says: "Hazza's computer can worth a crate of 100 wood", might wanna fix that

[zoom]

I think it would be good if Florida had the natives inverted, so that the Seminole Settlement (which has an improvement for +25% archer attack) is always neutral, and it's more realistic for a player to be denied access to it. I would also consider replacing Caribs (which has a +10% archer and hand infantry attack improvement) or Seminoles with another tribe (maybe Tupi), to alleviate balance issues relating to Bow Riders, Eagle Runner Knights, Longbowmen and Yumi, inherent to the current combination of tribes. I'm worried of British and Japanese being unbeatable, after the mid-game.

Regardless, I expect to rebalance the Seminole improvement, in the future.

[Rikikipu]

This one is gonna be for Garja, since this is his map. But sticking to facts, since 2016 (and the release of Florida), do you have any recorded game/stream that demonstrates how Bow Riders/ Eagle Runner Knigths, Longbowmen and Yumi were unbeatable on this map? Also, do you have any data that shows that British/Japanese are unbeatable on this map after mid-game during those 4 years?

[chronique]

Also, do you have any data that shows that British/Japanese are unbeatable on this map after mid-game during those 4 years?

Jap is unbeatable after mid game regardless of the map :p

[dansil92]

I think it would be good if Florida had the natives inverted, so that the Seminole Settlement (which has an improvement for +25% archer attack) is always neutral, and it's more realistic for a player to be denied access to it. I would also consider replacing Caribs (which has a +10% archer and hand infantry attack improvement) or Seminoles with another tribe (maybe Tupi), to alleviate balance issues relating to Bow Riders, Eagle Runner Knights, Longbowmen and Yumi, inherent to the current combination of tribes. I'm worried of British and Japanese being unbeatable, after the mid-game.

Regardless, I expect to rebalance the Seminole improvement, in the future.

Bro tupi has 10% to archers too

Also what about yabusame or keshiks? Those could be unbeatable? Or cav archers? Manchu? Arrow knights? Aenna?
Chu ko nu? Macehualtin are archers too...
i believe this map was specifically designed to give potential for archer abuse. All civs except dutch and india have an archer unit so i cant ever see it being a big issue, as both the carib and seminole units are rather unremarkable in supremacy. I like this map because it can potentially reward careful investment into archer units. Unless it is considered a common issue i see no problem with this map.

[Garja]

Florida native position depends on the route variation. In any case both tribes have a tech for archers.
I think those upgrades are not a problem whatsoever anyway. It's funny you bring the position thing when the TC radius has been removed and it's not even relevant anymore.

[zoom]

I think it would be good if Florida had the natives inverted, so that the Seminole Settlement (which has an improvement for +25% archer attack) is always neutral, and it's more realistic for a player to be denied access to it. I would also consider replacing Caribs (which has a +10% archer and hand infantry attack improvement) or Seminoles with another tribe (maybe Tupi), to alleviate balance issues relating to Bow Riders, Eagle Runner Knights, Longbowmen and Yumi, inherent to the current combination of tribes. I'm worried of British and Japanese being unbeatable, after the mid-game.

Regardless, I expect to rebalance the Seminole improvement, in the future.

Bro tupi has 10% to archers too

Also what about yabusame or keshiks? Those could be unbeatable? Or cav archers? Manchu? Arrow knights? Aenna?
Chu ko nu? Macehualtin are archers too...
i believe this map was specifically designed to give potential for archer abuse. All civs except dutch and india have an archer unit so i cant ever see it being a big issue, as both the carib and seminole units are rather unremarkable in supremacy. I like this map because it can potentially reward careful investment into archer units. Unless it is considered a common issue i see no problem with this map.

First I thought Tupi did, then I saw Carib and assumed I must have confused the two. That's funny! Arrow Knights and Macehualtins are meaningful additions, to the list. Thanks!

I would swap them so that there is only one such tribe on the map, and make it neutral only.

I'm confident it's an issue. The fact that it's commonly considered one is incidental.

[zoom]

This one is gonna be for Garja, since this is his map. But sticking to facts, since 2016 (and the release of Florida), do you have any recorded game/stream that demonstrates how Bow Riders/ Eagle Runner Knigths, Longbowmen and Yumi were unbeatable on this map? Also, do you have any data that shows that British/Japanese are unbeatable on this map after mid-game during those 4 years?

None whatsoever!

[zoom]

Florida native position depends on the route variation. In any case both tribes have a tech for archers.
I think those upgrades are not a problem whatsoever anyway. It's funny you bring the position thing when the TC radius has been removed and it's not even relevant anymore.

It's exactly as relevant as before. You must misunderstand; I am suggesting making the Seminole settlement always be neutral and singular, so that access to the improvement that is problematic can more reasonably be denied, by either player.

[n0el]

Seems like allowing both players access to that upgrade would be more fair, if it is indeed OP as you suggest.

[dansil92]

Yes macehualtin with the 2x vs vills melt eco like they melt musks... it's gross lol

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

This one is gonna be for Garja, since this is his map. But sticking to facts, since 2016 (and the release of Florida), do you have any recorded game/stream that demonstrates how Bow Riders/ Eagle Runner Knigths, Longbowmen and Yumi were unbeatable on this map? Also, do you have any data that shows that British/Japanese are unbeatable on this map after mid-game during those 4 years?

None whatsoever!

I certainly remember China and Jap getting crushed by Ports on Florida, and the archer's upgrade did not really helped Tabben's yumi against kynesie's guard hussards.

[Rikikipu]

This one is gonna be for Garja, since this is his map. But sticking to facts, since 2016 (and the release of Florida), do you have any recorded game/stream that demonstrates how Bow Riders/ Eagle Runner Knigths, Longbowmen and Yumi were unbeatable on this map? Also, do you have any data that shows that British/Japanese are unbeatable on this map after mid-game during those 4 years?

None whatsoever!

If there is no data that shows there is a problem, there is likely no problem

[dansil92]

I've definitely abused the archer techs on this map as aztec to mace-raid while water booming into erk spam with 35% attack buffs upon hitting fortess (then wp attack, cards) but I've never seen it done competitively. I mean your unkillable erks can hit 30+ attack easily in fortress but I would need to see someone get away with it at above leut/captain level to call it problematic

[Garja]

http://www.rts-sanctuary.com/The-Asian- ... &p=2372900
Here I lame both the techs with ERK, killing about 50cdbs lategame pretty easily. Until someone performs something like that there is no balance problem. Funny fact, this is the game where jap community started realizing about the war chief revival glitch as I do it unintentionally at some point in that game.

Anyway the point here seems to be the nat placement. Changing nat placement (which as I said it already happens randomly depending on the trade route variation) accomplishes nothing. And even if it did I wouldnt' change the way it is because I like the way map spawns at the moment.

[Mitoe]

This one is gonna be for Garja, since this is his map. But sticking to facts, since 2016 (and the release of Florida), do you have any recorded game/stream that demonstrates how Bow Riders/ Eagle Runner Knigths, Longbowmen and Yumi were unbeatable on this map? Also, do you have any data that shows that British/Japanese are unbeatable on this map after mid-game during those 4 years?

None whatsoever!

I certainly remember China and Jap getting crushed by Ports on Florida, and the archer's upgrade did not really helped Tabben's yumi against kynesie's guard hussards.

Wasn’t that the game where Tabben sent the 1 castle card in Fortress Age (which is pretty horrible)? Doesn’t seem very representative of anything.

[Garja]

He sent 2 castle card (+upgrade) in industrial. If he had made more of them + some walls he could have won that game.

[zoom]

I'm not arguing that it's cheap, or viable early (which is chiefly why we don't see it more often). That's beside the point, which is that +35% archer attack breaks balance – at least for the civilizations mentioned – once researched. Thinking that it doesn't is naive.

Nevertheless, I'll look to gather more feedback on it, for the future. Thanks!

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

I'm not arguing that it's cheap, or viable early (which is chiefly why we don't see it more often). That's beside the point, which is that +35% archer attack breaks balance – at least for the civilizations mentioned – once researched. Thinking that it doesn't is naive.

Nevertheless, I'll look to gather more feedback on it, for the future. Thanks!

Why do you want to change problems nobody is complaining about ?