More non-Standard Maps will make EP Better

[Darwin_]

The EP would be a much more interesting, strategically deep, and enjoyable experience if we re-engineered some existing EP maps to make them less standard and made some new non-standard ones as well. Non-standard maps force players to adapt, creating opportunities for underused and underutilized civilizations, strategies, and game content to become viable. A standard map set is incredibly valuable if people want to play random maps while testing a matchup or playing casually. However, when it comes to competitive and tournament play, or any other situation when maps are pre-determined, non-standard maps are the better option. AoE3 balance is always going to be slightly imperfect, and lack of diversity in maps means a lack of diversity in civ picks during tournaments, which is boring for viewers and disadvantageous to players who like or are most familiar playing the weaker civilizations at that time. Non-standard maps oftentimes offer situations where non-meta civs can succeed.

I've started to watch some AoE2:DE content ever since it came out, and what stands out most to me is how much players of that game have enjoyed the new map variety that the new match-making system has created. Instead of pro players essentially only playing on Arabia (which is essentially equivalent to something like Great Plains or ESOC Arkansas in AoE3), they are now playing on maps that are oftentimes far from standard, like Gold Rush or Valley (map with most of the gold in the center, map with tons of huntables).

While AoE3 and AoE2:DE are quite different games with different kinds of civilization balance, I think the principle still holds true. The most memorable games I've played and watched are the ones where players were put into a unique situation and had to fundamentally adapt their strategy to win.

[n0el]

I would really love to see a fair islands map like they played in the NAC3. In a tournament setting it would work, but in random maps would be bad.

[[Armag] diarouga]

The issue is that "non standard" means "less resources" or "no TP" for map makers, and it just makes the map less interesting. "Good" unstandard maps would be interesting for sure however.

[Hazza54321]

yeah unstandard is good but bonnie shit and parallel shitters are just terrible

[giannisKING]

I'd include heavy water maps on 'non standard maps', and by water heavy I mean the value of the water recourses being more than 9k of fish and 4 whales, so water boom will be more than an option. However the majority of the players wanted , and still want, to get rid of that gameplay.

[Astaroth]

I agree with the sentiment, but when making and choosing non standard maps you need to make sure that the maps don't just make one civ or strat the go-to in all cases.

To use aoe2 examples, there have been nonstandard maps like "seize the hump" which were just boring because every game was just a scrappy all-in luck based fight for the center. Or valley and the shore fish map, which only work if you ban Mongols and Indians respectively, that would otherwise be way OP there.

In this sense, some of the EP maps already work quite well as nonstandard: have some water, but not to much so you can't cheese eith boats (unlike new england); have TPs, but not too many to avoid having every game be a massive TP fight. Etc

Ofc you can also go completely nonstandard, but then you risk just one civ or style of play being viable or being OP (eg Hispaniola).

[Kaiserklein]

Less resources is good, no tp is often boring, non standard layouts are good

[flontier]

The problem is when unstandard map make some civ way better than other and some quite bad like deccan or thar desert.

[chronique]

Who want see some kynesis vs kynesis game on indonesia

[Jerimuno]

Less resources is good, no tp is often boring, non standard layouts are good

yet everyone shits on tibet, iowa, jebel musa... all of which meet the criteria you mentioned

[Kaiserklein]

Cause tibet and iowa had terrible pathing. The layout is just too extreme. Jebel is alright

[[Armag] diarouga]

Less resources is good, no tp is often boring, non standard layouts are good

yet everyone shits on tibet, iowa, jebel musa... all of which meet the criteria you mentioned

I think players in general dislike low resource map because it is very frustrating to play on that kind of map. I also think that it makes games less interesting strategically (although it makes micro and raiding more impactful).

Anyway, I don't think that Jebel Musa is disliked, and I wouldn't even say that it is an unstandard map.

[harcha]

I agree. It wouldn't even be hard, RE patch already includes plenty "nonstandard" stuff to boot like "large maps", amazonia, ceylon, deccan, maps with guarded TPs, regicide, plymouth, texas, northwest territory, king of the hill.

[Rikikipu]

The issue is that "non standard" means "less resources" or "no TP" for map makers, and it just makes the map less interesting.

Wrong.

@Darwin_ thing is:
Whenever you try something a little unstandard you get bullied quite hard as map makers. I personally do maps in my spare time for having fun and giving some new maps to the community. But when you get harassed on twitch chats or receive free nasty comments such as "bonnie shit" or "parallel shitters" doing this work become really unpleasant. The NR10 Arkansas lobby is so biased and powerful that at the end the only way to be in peace is making tp maps + a shit load of hunts and mines at base.
In any cases, I've planned to release in the next ep a set called ESOC Random Arkansas. Basically, it will be a set that spawns only Arkansas, but with different textures/brightness everytime so people will feel like those are brand new maps but with all the awesome comfort of playing our great Arkansas. The trick here is that you don't need to learn new BO, neither adapt to the map. I bet this will be the most liked ESOC map set ever

[Darwin_]

@Rikikipu
It really is a shame how much crap you get. While I do think that some of the non-standard maps that have been released were not 10/10 maps, almost all of them could be made great maps very easily. One could also argue that many of the non-standard maps aren't non-standard enough, per se, meaning that players think that they are standard enough to play within the meta when in fact they should probably be adapting somehow. Maybe it's time to release some very non-standard maps?

[harcha]

did you see TSREV maps?

[kami_ryu]

In any cases, I've planned to release in the next ep a set called ESOC Random Arkansas. Basically, it will be a set that spawns only Arkansas, but with different textures/brightness everytime so people will feel like those are brand new maps but with all the awesome comfort of playing our great Arkansas. The trick here is that you don't need to learn new BO, neither adapt to the map. I bet this will be the most liked ESOC map set ever

[[Armag] diarouga]

The issue is that "non standard" means "less resources" or "no TP" for map makers, and it just makes the map less interesting.

Wrong.

@Darwin_ thing is:
Whenever you try something a little unstandard you get bullied quite hard as map makers. I personally do maps in my spare time for having fun and giving some new maps to the community. But when you get harassed on twitch chats or receive free nasty comments such as "bonnie shit" or "parallel shitters" doing this work become really unpleasant. The NR10 Arkansas lobby is so biased and powerful that at the end the only way to be in peace is making tp maps + a shit load of hunts and mines at base.
In any cases, I've planned to release in the next ep a set called ESOC Random Arkansas. Basically, it will be a set that spawns only Arkansas, but with different textures/brightness everytime so people will feel like those are brand new maps but with all the awesome comfort of playing our great Arkansas. The trick here is that you don't need to learn new BO, neither adapt to the map. I bet this will be the most liked ESOC map set ever

I didn't mean to be offensive but in the past, almost all the non standard maps were either low resource or no TP.

I also understand that it is frustrating to spend a lot of time making map and getting hate for that but you also have to understand that we are forced to play on these maps then. So although you do that for free, to help people, it does affect the players.

[Darwin_]

did you see TSREV maps?

Yeah, I quite like most of them. I think they could all be very fun, competitive maps if they were given a nice touch up from a balance and aesthetic standpoint.

If you haven't seen them: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... rFYrPWaWXF

Thoughts on TSREV Maps

Going alphabetically, Alberta could be opened up just a tiny bit, maybe made a bit larger;
Bering Strait is fine, a little boring;
Cerro Acahay needs its terrain smoothed out a bit and beautified;
Chesapeake is cool with the starting bank, but could use some aesthetic touch-ups;
Death Valley is also fine, just would need to be refined, maybe move the trade route out of the centre as well;
Dhaka is cool, but I would have it only spawn with the rear tp-line, not the long one;
Inuvik is cool with the low wood idea, but I would add just a few more trees and have it only spawn with two tp's on each line;
Kawawaymog Lake is pretty cramped, honestly great lakes is just a better take on that design idea;
Manitoulin is by far the most non-standard and probably the coolest, I'd just make it a tiny bit bigger, make it a full circle instead of one of those cut-off maps;
Minnesota is also quite cool with the small ponds, I quite like it;
Panama is quite interesting, I think it's a cooler take on a water map than indonesia; Vietnam is quite standard, but the 4 shaolin posts are pretty cool.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Non-standard maps are probably more difficult for competitive players but they make watching much more interesting.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Non-standard maps are probably more difficult for competitive players but they make watching much more interesting.

It depends on the map. I'm quite sure the 50th Russian mirror on a no TP map is not very interesting to watch.

[Mitoe]

Unique maps and concepts are great. Definitely need more of them. The key is make sure that there are unique ways to play the map without alienating other playstyles either. Not an easy task.

Always wished I could make maps, but never put in the time to learn. Too bad.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Non-standard maps are probably more difficult for competitive players but they make watching much more interesting.

It depends on the map. I'm quite sure the 50th Russian mirror on a no TP map is not very interesting to watch.

e NWC...

Thar desert was getting rather boring at the end of the NWC... But for the first few games it was nice to see ! The problem may be more with the limited map-pool for such a long tournament than with the map itself.

Besides if I understand correctly the problem is when the map is both low ress and no-TP right ? On a high ress no-TP map civs like Brits, Japan, Russia, Aztec, Dutch and India should be viable, so that means six civs out of 14, sounds acceptable.

[WickedCossack]

ISLANDS MAP IN TOURNY!

MAKE IT HAPPEN!

[dansil92]

I'm currently working on some new, less standard, maps for EP...