Germans Discussion Thread

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Great Britain Riotcoke
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

Bad example though, as the ranged cav is going to kite, and if it doesn't it's not being used correctly. So ultimately it's a useless test.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

It's a bad example because it ignores overkill. Look at the uhlan hp lol, 2 of them are at like 1%. There's a huge overkill factor here.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

They get 176 damage from 2 shoots.
Hussars get 300 damage from 3 shoots however.

In the same time: uhlans overkill 522
Hussar overkill only 504
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

somppukunkku wrote:It doesn't work like that. In a realistic situation, dmg is a mix of many different units, ranged dmg, melee dmg, etc so 1hp doesn't really matter much. Just in early cav battles.

He is trying to prove that stat/costwise uhlans and hussar are quite equal.
However, in aoe3 cav is usually targeted first. Therefore hp>>>attack and also hus>>>uhlan. Uhlan great for raiding tho.
Should not really be hard to understand.

It does work like that in many cases. For example 1 less hit from pumas is just huge. Also since cav is more mobile, you often end up having cav vs cav even after the early game, so it matters a lot vs coss/huss/coyo/kanyas. I know it's not always one less hit because the damage gets mixed but still it does matter.

Well yes, huss > uhlan. According to his calculator, uhlan >>> huss. So it's bs.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

princeofkabul wrote:
Mitoe wrote:If anything changing the shipments to 7 skirm + 3 uhlan and 6 skirm + 3 uhlan would be much less ugly than altering the number of uhlans they get for certain shipments.

I would still rather try something like 181 - 185hp and 55f 100c cost.


I don't understand your logic behind this.
1.Is uhlan good unit now? - no
2.Was it ever the problem as a unit before nerf - no
3.The solution me and kaiser are after, does it directly impact the problem, which was the amount you can mass them? - yes

Why do you keep insisting of tweaking the unit stats or cost when it was never the issue?
the cost tweak wouldn't change the fact how much you get them since most of the comes from shipment anyways. Currently you are mustering big mass of uhlans that are essentially just inflated military pop space in the graphs. Could you explain what do you disagree with my solution, how is it bad. and maybe we can find a solution for this.
I want to make perfectly clear, that the notion, that the Uhlan itself was never the issue, is completely mistaken. Before the nerf, there is no question, that good players trained overwhelmingly Uhlans. Simply nerfing "3 Settler Wagons" will not be enough, for balancing either civilization strength, or unit viability. From RE, Uhlans must be nerfed. Of this, I am absolutely certain.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

princeofkabul wrote:Hey, for some reason I found motivation to type in for balance threads now.
I'm proposing german tweaks for having solid army by stats but less units in general.
Uhlan hp 190 and same buffed ep dops as now. For reducing the sheer amount what you can mass with them would be basically tweak the amount of free uhlans per ages or removing them entirely from a shipment (3sw)
Would it be too much of a change if crates and 3sw would be changed to have 1 free uhlan in age 2 and 1k crates to 2 uhlan in age 3? It's probably ugly change design wise but to be honest design for many civs have already been butchered so I don't understand why german wouldn't for the greater good. With these changes we would have solid cavalry back for germans and also a buffed infantry melee unit in a game dominated by ranged units. I'd like to hear some thoughts of others who play germans in higher level.
Although it's never before been as eloquently expressed, this age (of empires 3) old change makes some sense to me:

ā€“ "3 Settler Wagons" home-city shipment no longer grants any Uhlans. "Instead of Uhlans, you get extra Wagons" added to description.

If players prefer, we could even combine it with a slight Uhlan (food) cost nerf, to replace the controversial hitpoints nerf. This would internally standardize the shipment (as far as I'm aware, it's the only shipment that comes with a bonus & Uhlans), making it consistent within the civilization, reduce the Uhlan mass by 2 for virtually every build, as well as disincentivize training only Uhlans ā€“ all without making the unit perform any worse, on the field. Along with another 5s chipped off The Exiled Prince, it just might do.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:
zoom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:It's pretty much as dumb as nerfing nearly all Spanish unit shipments "because they get so many shipments!". 4 lancers became 3.
That's how they chose to ruin Spain on TAD back in the day
It pretty much isn't, because the Spanish shipments became underpowered, along with the civilization. I wouldn't let that happen, as ES did.

Still, it is pretty dumb, because it requires the rebalancing of another 50 shipments.
I was commenting on the reasoning being dumb. That is, the nerfing of a civ's shipments because their civ bonus scales on them.
Right.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

deleted_user wrote:140w manors is fine imo, but I've evolved into a 2v2 player.
How dare you!
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:
zoom wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Buffing the units and nerfing the shipments , nerfs them on tp and buffs on non tp so i dont see that issue. If you claim it looks ā€œuglyā€, then why hasnt that argument been considered when looking at siouxs karni mata teepees, port 85f vills or brit 140w manors
Still, it is pretty dumb, because it requires the rebalancing of another 50 shipments.
Also, there's nothing wrong with love 140w Manors! :wood:

Yeah that wasnt the best example i guess i just personally dislike that change. Admittedly I wouldnā€™t know how to change brits so idk. Im sure you get the jist of my point.
Sure. I think British is in a decent spot, at the moment.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by jgals »

does germany beat sioux on RE? EP?
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

jgals wrote:does germany beat sioux on RE? EP?


On RE no because hunts are shite.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

ā€“ "3 Settler Wagons" home-city shipment no longer grants any Uhlans. "Instead of Uhlans, you get extra Wagons" added to description.


Imo this would be a huge effort towards balancing Germany and here's my thoughts on why (I've been thinking about this all day at work)

This 3 settler shipment is your exclusive first shipment as Germany in literally 99% of builds.

But see normally you send it and get 6 vills and two immediate explorer-laming-villie-killing-you-cant-scout-me-cav 40 seconds into colonial.

Without uhlans attached theres a price now for that. You can be scouted. You cant start raiding 40 seconds into colonial. You can't immediately prevent an atp build/ forward base, scout quickly, etc.

You have to make a decision now. 2 settler wagons 2 uhlans? Or 3 settler wagons at the cost of the above? Its not just "two less uhlans in standard build" it's so much more.

Perhaps they need more adjudtment to stats or cost as well I'm not a long term community balance team member. But im saying dropping that uhlan perk as a "you get an extra settler wagon" would be HUGE
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by duckzilla »

I like the idea of a card changing the extra uhlans to +1 settler wagon for every shipment. On the other hand, it would severly reduce the (questionable) usefulness of German Town Farmers. One could think about German Town Farmers additonally increasing the settler wagon build limit to 40.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

2v per shipment lol
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by flontier »

3sw + 2 uhlan is a completely broken shipement (like 3 fluyt in age3 for dutch) and is defintely part of what make ger that strong ( also help them a lot in defense against aggressif play cause 1sw tank af).
At least for other shipments if you dont count the free ulhans, they have the same value that other civ (700w, 700g etc...)

But a 6 vills shipment that you cant even kill like normal vills wtf ?

If there is a nerf to do i would prefer to nerf just this shipment and transform it in something like : 2sw+1normal vills (+2 uhlans).

Also maybe it will add some more diversity cause people are gonna stop to send 3sw first in 90% of their game and use a bit more the 700w first.
I dislike the idea of reduce the free uhlan cause imo its against the civ design which is very raid oriented no ? (even if it could indeed be the right solution in term of balance.)
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Sending 3 sw is everyone's favorite part of any game where they play Germans. Not a fan of fucking with civ-defining stuff like that unless there's nothing better. Explore other options first imo.
And if you do want to nerf it, it should be nerfed to 5v instead. Removing the civ bonus for one shipment only is one of those typical shitty design choices ASFP made and shouldn't be repeated. It feels like a lazy band aid.

Dug up our old guidelines, for whatever they're worth
A change must:
- Address a civ balance issue, or
- Address a larger-scale balance issue which is apparent in a wide variety of match ups (for example dragoon nerf, potential water changes).

A change must not:
- Standardize a unit. For example in the case of uhlans we chose to nerf HP and not attack.
- Remove or nerf techs or shipments which are unique to a civ.
- Remove or nerf a civ bonus.

A change should:
- In the case of a buff target an aspect of the civ which is unique to it (examples include Dutch bank changes, Ottoman Silk Road, Spanish unction).
- In the case of a nerf focus on the civ's start, in order to affect it as generally as possible.
- Be tweakable.

A change should not:
- Encourage a play style which is already prevalent with the civ or in the meta game.
- Discourage a play style which is rarely seen with the civ or in the meta game.
- Introduce an exception to an otherwise consistent game design (for example making TPs more expensive only for a certain civ).
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

The old guidelines lol that ship has sailed
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

"Remove or nerf a civ bonus"
=> Manor nerf :O
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

While i disagree with GS on the "it's a civ bonus so we shouldn't touch it" argument (because sometimes it is the civ bonus that is simply broken), i think that just nerfing the 3SW shipment alone would be very unelegant and do little to solve germany's problems. I'd rather see only 2 uhlans with every shipment even in age 3 or simply an increase in the experience needed from the 4th shipment onwards. Plain and simple. Buys more time to every civ to mass up and defend against the german fortress timing. Idk the precise time at which shipments should come in but (for an example i'll use arbitrary numbers if on RE germany has sent 9uhlans 8uhlans 8skirm 7skirm by the 12 minute mark, with this change it would be by the 14th minute mark, and by that time france has 10 more goons and 10 more skirms or whatever.
If german shipments are too strong then make it harder to get them.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

I get the reflex of nerfing the parts of a civ that are strong (tends to be the civ bonus or other unique things) but it needs to be resisted. At the very least, every possible alternative should be explored first.
(because sometimes it is the civ bonus that is simply broken)
This has never been the case. A strong civ bonus can always be compensated for by a nerf to the civ's start, like -1 vill or less crates.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

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Post by Djigit »

GS is consistently inconsistent
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

I most definitely agree that civ uniqueness should be preserved at all costs but sometimes you just have to compromise and find the best middle ground. Arguably abus are a civ bonus for otto, who gets terrible eco in exchange, yet they got nerfed. Same for manor houses, chinese villages, cdbs, genitours, bow riders etc etc, therefore as far as consistency goes we have all the rights to nerf a civ bonus at this point. I simply think that disregarding a possible nerf on the civ's main aspects only because it is a bonus might make us overlook simple and effective solutions that aren't obtainable in other ways.

What would you do to nerf brits if not nerfing manors or longbows? Nerf musks (and therefore nerf other 4 civs in the process)? That could be an idea but then this wouldn't be a traditional patch, it would simply be a redesign of the game and we all know where it would end.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

gamevideo113 wrote:. . . or simply an increase in the experience needed from the 4th shipment onwards. Plain and simple. Buys more time to every civ to mass up and defend against the german fortress timing.

Their shipments are already insanely expensive compared to other civs. This would be a great way to make them even more reliant on Trading Posts.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

gamevideo113 wrote:What would you do to nerf brits if not nerfing manors or longbows?
We couldn't find a way. The manor nerf was certainly a last resort, as it should've been.
The same should be the case for Germans. The reflex is to nerf the civ bonus, but resist it until every alternative is explored.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Truthfully I don't think Germans are even that overpowered right now, albeit maybe(?) still slightly too strong. Leaving the 180hp, a small change would be enough to balance them, I think.

I, too, want to avoid changing the shipments as much as possible, as that really ruins the fun of playing Germany in the first place, I feel.

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