Spain

[Rohbrot]

Hey guys
After seeing many users in twitch chat that say ^^spain is OP^^ i wanted to make this thread.
Write here why Spain is OP or why do you think its not.
i will write my thoughts after some replies.
Thx from now for the replies.

[harcha]

Yeah I really think that people overrate spain these days. There are some solid colonial options that can stop any fortress spain in it's tracks. These are, unfortunately, underused in the current NR10 meta.

However,
from the games I have seen, I think you're also not too experienced playing standard fortress play with skirm rod lancer, so you might be underestimating the merits of this play.

[Rohbrot]

Yeah I really think that people overrate spain these days. There are some solid colonial options that can stop any fortress spain in it's tracks. These are, unfortunately, underused in the current NR10 meta.

However,
from the games I have seen, I think you're also not too experienced playing standard fortress play with skirm rod lancer, so you might be underestimating the merits of this play.

nah,i dont like to play normal but this doesnt mean i´ve never done it.And i have played now like 400games with spain and i did create some BOs. I know all (normal) and crazy stuff about Spain

[Shikari]

Yeah I really think that people overrate spain these days. There are some solid colonial options that can stop any fortress spain in it's tracks. These are, unfortunately, underused in the current NR10 meta.

However,
from the games I have seen, I think you're also not too experienced playing standard fortress play with skirm rod lancer, so you might be underestimating the merits of this play.

nah,i dont like to play normal but this doesnt mean i´ve never done it.And i have played now like 400games with spain and i did create some BOs. I know all (normal) and crazy stuff about Spain

I think I have asked for you this before but can I be your spain desciple. Will you teach me the ways of spain?

[Kaiserklein]

Just like the last couple years, spain is fine. Roughly average, and over average with good atp options. A bit stronger recently because of the buffs and the removal of tp radius, but not OP obviously

[Rohbrot]

Yeah I really think that people overrate spain these days. There are some solid colonial options that can stop any fortress spain in it's tracks. These are, unfortunately, underused in the current NR10 meta.

However,
from the games I have seen, I think you're also not too experienced playing standard fortress play with skirm rod lancer, so you might be underestimating the merits of this play.

nah,i dont like to play normal but this doesnt mean i´ve never done it.And i have played now like 400games with spain and i did create some BOs. I know all (normal) and crazy stuff about Spain

I think I have asked for you this before but can I be your spain desciple. Will you teach me the ways of spain?

i´m teached by @chronique and i would like to share my experience with you, adding u on eso rahuru. but pls start playing ep

[Shikari]

Show hidden quotes

Yeah I really think that people overrate spain these days. There are some solid colonial options that can stop any fortress spain in it's tracks. These are, unfortunately, underused in the current NR10 meta.

However,
from the games I have seen, I think you're also not too experienced playing standard fortress play with skirm rod lancer, so you might be underestimating the merits of this play.

nah,i dont like to play normal but this doesnt mean i´ve never done it.And i have played now like 400games with spain and i did create some BOs. I know all (normal) and crazy stuff about Spain

I think I have asked for you this before but can I be your spain desciple. Will you teach me the ways of spain?

i´m teached by @chronique and i would like to share my experience with you, adding u on eso rahuru. but pls start playing ep

Yeah I can play on ep if I get games.

[Rohbrot]

@Shikari wanna play one game now?

[Shikari]

@Shikari wanna play one game now?

It's 3:11 am for me right now. Can play tomorrow.

[chronique]

I not agree with kaiser, spain wasn't fine before ep 7 and ep 8 (clearly bottom civ). What make spain strong now? xp buff + map pool + xp trickle, all of this stuff have a great synergie, plus some other top civ which was strong againt spain are nerf (iro / india). Also, with unction and caba buff (+1 range is significant), spain are realy strong later in the game.

Now you can play aggro (and its better because of xp buff and faster age up time) and your late game are better as well, and you can play more eco with atp / spanish gold (again, every xp is a double buff from spain, buff civ overall and buff spanish gold). And with all of this buff, spain is far to be "op".

Spain are not a bit stronger, they are clearly stronger.

[Jotunir]

Just like the last couple years, spain is fine. Roughly average, and over average with good atp options. A bit stronger recently because of the buffs and the removal of tp radius, but not OP obviously

I agree with you, Spain is fine right now.

[Kaiserklein]

I not agree with kaiser, spain wasn't fine before ep 7 and ep 8 (clearly bottom civ). What make spain strong now? xp buff + map pool + xp trickle, all of this stuff have a great synergie, plus some other top civ which was strong againt spain are nerf (iro / india). Also, with unction and caba buff (+1 range is significant), spain are realy strong later in the game.

It totally wasn't bottom civ. I remember even back then I used to tell people you can go spanish gold and be just fine in prolonged fortress wars, but no one would do it.
The nat xp trickle is barely relevant. The main strength of atp is to control the tp line and get stagecoach. Getting nat posts with atp is barely worth it unless you're also gonna get some tech in there. Obviously it's strong on no tp but that's about it.
Spain is fine now even regardless of the map pool. Sure the atp potential means spain is basically always a good pick nowadays. But on these same maps, spain was strong already on previous EP. And on non atp maps, spain still has plenty of decent match ups, thanks to spanish gold. You need to realize that when talking about balance, you can't just take the tourney map pool into account. And anyway there was always some big tp line map in previous tourneys, like high plains or whatever, where you could pick spain.

[chronique]

You need to realize that when talking about balance, you can't just take the tourney map pool into account. And anyway there was always some big tp line map in previous tourneys, like high plains or whatever, where you could pick spain.

Spain was fine but :
- never used in tourney
- nor on ladder
- nor by you vs peaple from your pr

Also :
- after a ton of buff (better map pool, xp trickle, caba, unction, age up time, civ xp bonus).
- and other civ nerf (india, iro, german)
Spain are considered fine.

There are litterraly zero arg that justifie your assertion ^^.

[Kaiserklein]

We had the same arguments about iro being bad. No one played the civ, in tourney or on the ladder. And then we realized iro was actually real strong and people started playing it, even if they barely got any new buffs. I could find you quotes of people saying iro is garbage, like 6 months before everyone used it in tourney.

I didn't play spain vs people of my PR because... I couldn't play spain lol. It's not about how strong the civ was, just about how well I could play it. You can check, I'm also not going brits, or China when I played it a bit, against people of my PR, even if these civs are strong.


So you see your 3 first arguments are plain wrong. Now about the buffs, spain got only small changes since previous patch. The native xp trickle is just a placebo, like it's not even relevant on TP maps, but you seem to care about it. The map pool is better for spain, but again that's irrelevant, there were already maps in every tourney where you could play atp spain. Caballeros is also so irrelevant in a majority of games, it's still inferior to cav combat in most situations, and even cav combat is rarely sent as spain. Same for unction. The age up time difference was already the same on previous patch I believe. And finally, yes the xp bonus is a buff, but it's not like it would turn a bottom civ into a good civ...

And other civs aren't all nerfed lol. For example japan, ports and aztecs were buffed. So I don't get your point.


So now, please explain to me how spain was shit on EP7 and is strong on EP8..?

[chronique]

Just like the last couple years, spain is fine.

Spain are "decent" since ep7 to me, and ep7 is 6 month ago. Also i am not sure spain are so fine without / not so many, tp map.

And other civs aren't all nerfed lol. For example japan, ports and aztecs were buffed. So I don't get your point.

Because this civ (or at least aztek / porto) are not bad for spain, so ofc if you nerf top civ, bottom civ are less bottom lol.

Anyway i guess we are agree, spain are fine now and that's what matter.