Dutch Discussion Thread

[iNcog]

This is the Dutch Discussion thread, where several topics concerning this civilization on the ESOC Patch may be discussed. We're looking for feedback on the current state of balance, from the community's standpoint.

[momuuu]

Since nobody likes Dutch, I'll just post what I think of the mus so far:

[ul type="disc"][li]Iro - 70/30 - Seems like an easy win for Dutch, Iro seemingly wants to timing when Dutch is at their peak strength. Not sure if iro colonial play could do any damage whatsoever, as I haven't tested it as much.[/li][li]Aztec - 40/60 - Still a tough mu in my opinion. The experience buff is pretty relevant here though, as Dutch kinda wants to send pikes as early as possible but not right after bank wagon. Bank wagon 700w 8 pikes seem like it'd perform much better than on re.[/li][li]Sioux - 50/50? - I am undecided as of yet. Wasn't the greatest mu on re, but not the worst either. With both sioux being slightly nerfed and Dutch getting buffed, I'd expect this to be a very reasonable mu.[/li][li]China - 45/55 - China has always been a pretty tough mu for me. Can't punish the age up at all. On re patch Dutch can just barely not keep up with their mass. I think with the buffs Dutch might barely keep up with the mass. Would be a close mu then.[/li][li]India - 55/45 - I think you can beat india pretty easily if you get a nice read off. 10/10, colonial timing and eco semi can all be punished by variations of a skirm semi ff. Not sure how you'd consistently scout what build india is going for exactly though, which is why I haven't rated it 60/40[/li][li]Japan - 40/60 Don't like this mu. Extremely tough to put any pressure on Japan at all. And trying to semi ff vs them seems to just not work vs the yumi mass. [/li][li]Otto - 55/45 Was already a very decent match up for dutch. They don't have any problems vs colonial otto at all in my opinion. I guess Jan huss can be a little bit tricky still, but nobody is doing that atm. The silk road change pays off when it's too late to punish dutch, so they mostly profit from the small abus nerf. vs quick falc timings they still struggle I guess, but the mam follow up is quit a bit weaker. Could be either 60/40 or 50/50 aswell I guess. [/li][li]British - 40/60 Really not a good mu. British semi ff into longbow goon huss with a 2 falc shipment is really really strong. You can't safely huss semi either, since that can be punished by both musk huss and longbow pike. I think longbow pike can be beaten with a colonial skirm pike timing. In age 3 wars brits just outmass you with longbow and have a better eco, it's extremely tough to deal with in my eyes. In the replay pack you can see two games of brits vs dutch, where the one thats being won is won because the brit player messed up really badly imo. Should give an idea of how tough to mu is.[/li][li]Ger- 20/80 This match up is atrocious. They outmass you basically throughout the game. Somewhere mid fortress you can maybe stabilize, but shortly afterwards you'll start getting outecod and outmassed again. simply an impossible mu both on re and ep. [/li][li]Spain - 30/70 I have no idea how to win this mu. You cant actually punish the age up, and you are up too late to defend a pike/halb timing right clicking your TC. If you try 5 skirm semi you lose to him aging up with hussars, and you are going to have an extremely hard time holding off the standard falc timing aswell. Not only does spain have multiple strong options, they are all so strong that builds tailored to specifically counter them still won't reach 50% winrate in my eyes.[/li][li]France - 50/50 I'm leaning towards 55/45. You definitely beat huss semi, unless it's on high plains and they get a 5 TP eco, but with the 6 bank limit I think you also beat that. Musk huss can be beaten by doing a skirm pike semi, which already did really decent vs france on re, and got buffed pretty decently on this patch. You could also do some sort of colonial play and age up a bit later. France will feel pressured to try to punish you for the potential age up that isn't actually coming.[/li][li]Ports - 55/45 With the 6 bank limit, you can do a 5 bank huss semi that greatly outmasses ports. 2 falcs can annihilate their attempt to timing you with organ guns, and the mam nerf really helps in this mu. A quick orga gun timing as ports could cause troubles. I need more testing to be sure[/li][li]Russia - 45/55 I suck vs russia, but still think dutch can win this. Either by playing a bit in colonial and then aging vs aggression, or just doing a straight semi vs a slower russia. Russia's semi timing with falcs is fairly scary though, but after you get that out of the way, you can just bully them with your range advantage. [/li][/ul][span][span][span]
[/span]I guess Dutch still has 2 atrocious mus in Germany and Spain, and still sucks vs Azzie, Brits and Japan, but all the other mus are fairly even. If you analyse them like this, they do get a sub 50% winrate, just because there isn't much to compensate for 2 borderline unwinnable match ups.

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[edeholland]

So do you think they're good as they are now? In 1v1 that is.

[momuuu]

So do you think they''re good as they are now? In 1v1 that is.

I thought they were, but after writing that post I think they''re still on the weak side in terms of overall win percentage. Solely because Germany and Spain, and to lesser extend british and Japan destroy them. Those mu''s are just anti dutch.

Running the numbers, they get a 45.8 winrate, which is possibly even lower than russia (a civ that is heavily being discussed right now for being too weak). I don''t think they necessarily need more buff, but I am surprised nobody is even discussing it.

[edeholland]

Question is if we should solve that. And if we would want to, solve it on the Dutch side or the Germany/Spain/Brits/Japs side. It seems like they are already much more balanced now.

[WickedCossack]

Pretty sure on a berry map or most esoc maps dutch crushes sioux and aztec. Skirm semi FF with a full wall and I don't see anything the other civs can do.

[Hazza54321]

pretty sure they beat spain on fp

[momuuu]

I am pretty sure they don't beat spain on fp though.

[edeholland]

Sounds like we need more testing

[[Armag] diarouga]

I agree with you on almost everything except spain vs dutch.
If ever spain win (they might, they might not), that'd be 45-55, that's still close.

[momuuu]

I agree with you on almost everything except spain vs dutch.
If ever spain win (they might, they might not), that''d be 45-55, that''s still close.

Teach me senpai.

Seriously, I actually almost beat mitoe in that mu, without even having 8 pikes/12 pikes in my deck. And mitoe is not only way better than me, but I am also absolute shit at spain.

[zoom]

Sounds like we need more testing

' )

[momuuu]

In all seriousness, what build order would you guys suggest vs spain then? I think the complete variaty of dutch builds can all specifically countered by a spanish strat that, if performed correctly, leads to a near 90% winrate.

[Mimsy for President]

Something with vet rods obviously.

You shouldn't consider me as a reference for dutch vs iro

[momuuu]

You shouldn''t consider me as a reference for dutch vs iro

I played it some more, and mostly consider the feeling a mu gives me as a reference. How well I played, how well my opponent played and how easy/hard the mu was are all taken into account

I just dont see them win with colonial play, nor do I see them win with fortress play.

[Mimsy for President]

@jerom
Fair enough.

[n0el]

You shouldnt consider me as a reference for dutch vs iro

I played it some more, and mostly consider the feeling a mu gives me as a reference. How well I played, how well my opponent played and how easy/hard the mu was are all taken into account

I just dont see them win with colonial play, nor do I see them win with fortress play.

I played some more games vs Dutch after our game. I think Iro has a chance with a cav semi FF. If you can kill some Vils and keep 4-5 cav alive, then you can sit outside Dutch base and snipe at Vils with FP while trying to get eco going at home. If Dutch gets a large enough mass, they can start trading and win easy. But if you keep mass down and mee picking away it is possible to win.

[momuuu]

The way I see it, the strength of iro is timed at a moment where competing with dutch is extremely hard for any civ. I could imagine that, if you adapt the build to do an optimal super early fortress timing that you might do decent, since the dutch (semi) ff is kinda slow. But I doubt iro could succesfully pull one off. Their cav semi, idk that like doing something that dutch is much better at. In terms of colonial play, I cant imagine their timing to be stronger than the musk huss timing that france can pull off which is surely holdable. Which doesnt leave much options.

Ive actually been wondering how iro would be supposed to win ~50% of the time.

[fard]

In all seriousness, what build order would you guys suggest vs spain then? I think the complete variaty of dutch builds can all specifically countered by a spanish strat that, if performed correctly, leads to a near 90% winrate.

I didn''t played on the fp yet, but vs spain. I remember aelena (old player from nilla) used to do a 17 vill up with dutch against spain. So i did it aswell in many Games and it worked out pretty well. Also i tested different things like sending 1 falconet. It hurt my exp but i think, now on the fp u get more exp with building banks so u got more exp for ur early midgame when u hit fortress. Try smth like that, since spain wont ever play colo in any case..and if they do u can adapt pretty easily i think...waiting to test all these things *_*

[yemshi]

You shouldnt consider me as a reference for dutch vs iro

I just dont see them win with colonial play, nor do I see them win with fortress play.
So you suggest to play in Age I for some time?

[forgrin]

[quote author="@jerom" source="/post/75387/thread" timestamp="1446597016"]Since nobody likes Dutch, I'll just post what I think of the mus so far:

[ul type="disc"][li]Iro - 70/30 - Seems like an easy win for Dutch, Iro seemingly wants to timing when Dutch is at their peak strength. Not sure if iro colonial play could do any damage whatsoever, as I haven't tested it as much.[/li][li]Aztec - 40/60 - Still a tough mu in my opinion. The experience buff is pretty relevant here though, as Dutch kinda wants to send pikes as early as possible but not right after bank wagon. Bank wagon 700w 8 pikes seem like it'd perform much better than on re.[/li][li]Sioux - 50/50? - I am undecided as of yet. Wasn't the greatest mu on re, but not the worst either. With both sioux being slightly nerfed and Dutch getting buffed, I'd expect this to be a very reasonable mu.[/li][li]China - 45/55 - China has always been a pretty tough mu for me. Can't punish the age up at all. On re patch Dutch can just barely not keep up with their mass. I think with the buffs Dutch might barely keep up with the mass. Would be a close mu then.[/li][li]India - 55/45 - I think you can beat india pretty easily if you get a nice read off. 10/10, colonial timing and eco semi can all be punished by variations of a skirm semi ff. Not sure how you'd consistently scout what build india is going for exactly though, which is why I haven't rated it 60/40[/li][li]Japan - 40/60 Don't like this mu. Extremely tough to put any pressure on Japan at all. And trying to semi ff vs them seems to just not work vs the yumi mass. [/li][li]Otto - 55/45 Was already a very decent match up for dutch. They don't have any problems vs colonial otto at all in my opinion. I guess Jan huss can be a little bit tricky still, but nobody is doing that atm. The silk road change pays off when it's too late to punish dutch, so they mostly profit from the small abus nerf. vs quick falc timings they still struggle I guess, but the mam follow up is quit a bit weaker. Could be either 60/40 or 50/50 aswell I guess. [/li][li]British - 40/60 Really not a good mu. British semi ff into longbow goon huss with a 2 falc shipment is really really strong. You can't safely huss semi either, since that can be punished by both musk huss and longbow pike. I think longbow pike can be beaten with a colonial skirm pike timing. In age 3 wars brits just outmass you with longbow and have a better eco, it's extremely tough to deal with in my eyes. In the replay pack you can see two games of brits vs dutch, where the one thats being won is won because the brit player messed up really badly imo. Should give an idea of how tough to mu is.[/li][li]Ger- 20/80 This match up is atrocious. They outmass you basically throughout the game. Somewhere mid fortress you can maybe stabilize, but shortly afterwards you'll start getting outecod and outmassed again. simply an impossible mu both on re and ep. [/li][li]Spain - 30/70 I have no idea how to win this mu. You cant actually punish the age up, and you are up too late to defend a pike/halb timing right clicking your TC. If you try 5 skirm semi you lose to him aging up with hussars, and you are going to have an extremely hard time holding off the standard falc timing aswell. Not only does spain have multiple strong options, they are all so strong that builds tailored to specifically counter them still won't reach 50% winrate in my eyes.[/li][li]France - 50/50 I'm leaning towards 55/45. You definitely beat huss semi, unless it's on high plains and they get a 5 TP eco, but with the 6 bank limit I think you also beat that. Musk huss can be beaten by doing a skirm pike semi, which already did really decent vs france on re, and got buffed pretty decently on this patch. You could also do some sort of colonial play and age up a bit later. France will feel pressured to try to punish you for the potential age up that isn't actually coming.[/li][li]Ports - 55/45 With the 6 bank limit, you can do a 5 bank huss semi that greatly outmasses ports. 2 falcs can annihilate their attempt to timing you with organ guns, and the mam nerf really helps in this mu. A quick orga gun timing as ports could cause troubles. I need more testing to be sure[/li][li]Russia - 45/55 I suck vs russia, but still think dutch can win this. Either by playing a bit in colonial and then aging vs aggression, or just doing a straight semi vs a slower russia. Russia's semi timing with falcs is fairly scary though, but after you get that out of the way, you can just bully them with your range advantage. [/li][/ul][span][span][span]
[/span]I guess Dutch still has 2 atrocious mus in Germany and Spain, and still sucks vs Azzie, Brits and Japan, but all the other mus are fairly even. If you analyse them like this, they do get a sub 50% winrate, just because there isn't much to compensate for 2 borderline unwinnable match ups.

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I dunno with Ports, a guy (admittedly 5 PR higher) beat my organ+musk+Cass timing with full halbs...

[Mimsy for President]

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I dunno with Ports, a guy (admittedly 5 PR higher) beat my organ+musk+Cass timing with full halbs...

Jerom is saying he wins ports. 55 (in dutch favour) vs 45 for ports.

[forgrin]

I dunno with Ports, a guy (admittedly 5 PR higher) beat my organ+musk+Cass timing with full halbs...

Jerom is saying he wins ports. 55 (in dutch favour) vs 45 for ports.

I was specifically saying organ timing isnt that good vs dutch as Jerom said it might be. Organs just dont have enough siege and get bopped easily, even by ruyters. Theyre only actually decent starting at 16-18mins in a fortress stalemate.

[Mimsy for President]

Jerom is saying he wins ports. 55 (in dutch favour) vs 45 for ports.

I was specifically saying organ timing isnt that good vs dutch as Jerom said. Organs just dont have enough siege and get bopped easily, even by ruyters.

My bad, I didnt read what followed the "odds".

[[Armag] diarouga]

Vs dutch I go 5huss semi into goon/skirm/mam.
Like eco theory/700g/600g/5goons/1k gold/5mams. It works pretty well.