Dutch Discussion Thread

[yemshi]

right. seems legit.

[deleted_user]

I love when the first post on a new page references a post on the previous page without quoting it.

[DaRkNiTe1698]

right. seems legit.

Nilla balance

[macacoalbino]

In nilla there was no Bank Wagon card though, idk what would happen tbh, might make dutch's early game too strong. dunno

[Hazza54321]

i really dont think dutch church card should slow down units tbh, id be fine with vills less hp or smth

[duckzilla]

i really dont think dutch church card should slow down units tbh, id be fine with vills less hp or smth

This is pretty much why I don't play Dutch. Making your units slower is just the worst kind of design. Same for the british (?) church card, making your musks slower but adds hp. It is such a bad trade that I always hesitate to do it, but as Dutch you are basically forced to nerf your own units, since you will have a shit late-game economy otherwise.

Also the 2 banks which you get in exchange do not even help your late-game economy that much (equivalent of ~2.5 japanese late-game vills each).

[Kaiserklein]

i really dont think dutch church card should slow down units tbh, id be fine with vills less hp or smth

Yeah I think the speed penalty is really painful. Imo make it cost like 500f to research

[momuuu]

The tech itself isn't even good though. ~1500 resources for a handful of vills isn't really a good investment. Dutch needs to win the game before or during the transition to mills and should have little interest in getting more banks. I think just removing the speed debuff is absolutely fine.

[Kaiserklein]

Of course the tech is good, since the church card already kinda pays off because of stradiots or even stadhouders. If it unlocks 2 banks basically for free it's too strong.

[deleted_user0]

how about unlocking 2 banks and making banks cost 25% more res.

or unlocking 2 banks and only slowing down cavalry by 10%.

imo there ought to be a penalty that lasts longer than just a single investment.

[Hazza54321]

@Goodspeed

[momuuu]

Of course the tech is good, since the church card already kinda pays off because of stradiots or even stadhouders. If it unlocks 2 banks basically for free it's too strong.

Honestly, I don't really know what's strong about unlocking 2 banks for free. A TC pays off much more compared to banks, you're getting 10 vills for 1000f and 500w on EP, wheras two banks are less than 10 vills for 700f and 700w, and you don't need to build a church to get it going. There are only 5 stradiots (not sure about this) for a shipment, 1000c and 100w which is also somewhat subpar. Actually, the wikipedia says its 1000f, although I do not recall that being true.

Anyways, I don't think the church shipment is great; the stradiots aren't that good and you still have to pay a lot of resources for the banks. When you're shipping the church card other civs are shipping things like royal mint or refrigeration, so it might be fair if the speed boost wasnt there. Fortunately this scenario is pretty irrelevant as I don't think Dutch is a very competitive lategame civ and has to win before the transition to mills is completed imo.

[Oliveza]

Hazza54321 wrote:
i really dont think dutch church card should slow down units tbh, id be fine with vills less hp or smth

Was Dutch ever supposed to be a lategame civ? I think Dutch was never intended to have a super stong economy like Japan/French/Port after Age 4
So why even add the 2 Banks and slow down your entire Army when you can rather go FI and make a Timing with HC or stay Age 3 and push out after your FF.
Dutch will never be able to win eco wise vs lategame civs imo.

[Hazza54321]

Hazza54321 wrote:
i really dont think dutch church card should slow down units tbh, id be fine with vills less hp or smth

Was Dutch ever supposed to be a lategame civ? I think Dutch was never intended to have a super stong economy like Japan/French/Port after Age 4
So why even add the 2 Banks and slow down your entire Army when you can rather go FI and make a Timing with HC or stay Age 3 and push out after your FF.
Dutch will never be able to win eco wise vs lategame civs imo.

you gonna pull 3.2k res out of your ass or what

[Kaiserklein]

Of course the tech is good, since the church card already kinda pays off because of stradiots or even stadhouders. If it unlocks 2 banks basically for free it's too strong.

Honestly, I don't really know what's strong about unlocking 2 banks for free. A TC pays off much more compared to banks, you're getting 10 vills for 1000f and 500w on EP, wheras two banks are less than 10 vills for 700f and 700w, and you don't need to build a church to get it going. There are only 5 stradiots (not sure about this) for a shipment, 1000c and 100w which is also somewhat subpar. Actually, the wikipedia says its 1000f, although I do not recall that being true.

Anyways, I don't think the church shipment is great; the stradiots aren't that good and you still have to pay a lot of resources for the banks. When you're shipping the church card other civs are shipping things like royal mint or refrigeration, so it might be fair if the speed boost wasnt there. Fortunately this scenario is pretty irrelevant as I don't think Dutch is a very competitive lategame civ and has to win before the transition to mills is completed imo.

You can't compare tcs and banks. Dutch can't really build tcs since they reach their vil cap so quickly, so being able to get 2 extra banks is good for them. It's just twice as good as the age 1 card, if you remove the penalty. Similar to an 8v shipment, though you have to pay for the banks obviously, but since it also unlocks strads and stadhouders it's decent.
5 strads for 1000g 100w and a shipment is not really great yeah. However you can ship that card in transition to fortress and pop the strads directly, so that's one big advantage (compared to waiting 1 min for the shipment to come in fortress if you shipped, say, 6 hackappels). So yeah shipping the church card to just get strads is kind of meh (though not horrible), but if you also can unlock 2 extra banks for free I think it's really good actually.
Ah and btw, you can get the banks before lategame. Imagine shipping the church card in transition to fortress, and getting 1000w as well to build these, while shipping the church strads. Against a rather passive civ like ports it might be really strong. Also I have to disagree, strads are really strong units.

[Oliveza]

Hazza54321 wrote:
i really dont think dutch church card should slow down units tbh, id be fine with vills less hp or smth

Was Dutch ever supposed to be a lategame civ? I think Dutch was never intended to have a super stong economy like Japan/French/Port after Age 4
So why even add the 2 Banks and slow down your entire Army when you can rather go FI and make a Timing with HC or stay Age 3 and push out after your FF.
Dutch will never be able to win eco wise vs lategame civs imo.

you gonna pull 3.2k res out of your ass or what

No what I was trying to say is: Why invest so much into the Church-Card & 1,4k res & slow down your Army, just for a Little more eco, which will be irrelevant sooner or later , because Dutch isnt a super-late game civ. When you could rather invest those 1,4k res & a Shipment into sth more Usefull to make a Timing and win that way.

Also how should I pull so much and out of my Anus?

[momuuu]

Of course the tech is good, since the church card already kinda pays off because of stradiots or even stadhouders. If it unlocks 2 banks basically for free it's too strong.

Honestly, I don't really know what's strong about unlocking 2 banks for free. A TC pays off much more compared to banks, you're getting 10 vills for 1000f and 500w on EP, wheras two banks are less than 10 vills for 700f and 700w, and you don't need to build a church to get it going. There are only 5 stradiots (not sure about this) for a shipment, 1000c and 100w which is also somewhat subpar. Actually, the wikipedia says its 1000f, although I do not recall that being true.

Anyways, I don't think the church shipment is great; the stradiots aren't that good and you still have to pay a lot of resources for the banks. When you're shipping the church card other civs are shipping things like royal mint or refrigeration, so it might be fair if the speed boost wasnt there. Fortunately this scenario is pretty irrelevant as I don't think Dutch is a very competitive lategame civ and has to win before the transition to mills is completed imo.

You can't compare tcs and banks. Dutch can't really build tcs since they reach their vil cap so quickly, so being able to get 2 extra banks is good for them. It's just twice as good as the age 1 card, if you remove the penalty. Similar to an 8v shipment, though you have to pay for the banks obviously, but since it also unlocks strads and stadhouders it's decent.
5 strads for 1000g 100w and a shipment is not really great yeah. However you can ship that card in transition to fortress and pop the strads directly, so that's one big advantage (compared to waiting 1 min for the shipment to come in fortress if you shipped, say, 6 hackappels). So yeah shipping the church card to just get strads is kind of meh (though not horrible), but if you also can unlock 2 extra banks for free I think it's really good actually.
Ah and btw, you can get the banks before lategame. Imagine shipping the church card in transition to fortress, and getting 1000w as well to build these, while shipping the church strads. Against a rather passive civ like ports it might be really strong. Also I have to disagree, strads are really strong units.

It's nothing like an 8 vill card, it's so much worse. It costs you 1500 resources + build time to even be allowed to do that, which is worth much more than a fortress age shipment, and you didn't even get a useful shipment. So you're actually paying 2500 resources for 8 villagers! This is a terrible deal. The fact that it would be twice as good as the age 1 bank cards just emphasizes how terrible those cards are. The comparison I made is to other civs that get the ability to boom up much harder for much fewer resources. They can just spend 1300 resources to get 8 extra vills over time, or spend 2500 resources for 15 vills from 2 extra town centers. The redeeming quality is indeed that the 5 stradiots are okay, although pretty mediocre compared to other options and that you in return get the same eco boom potential as all other civs have for the first 8 vills (which will then plateau anyways).

I do not think this card would ever be overpowered if it didn't reduce the speed of units or have some other penalty. If you want to play greedily against a civ like ports there are some far better options available to you in the form of infantry combat cards. Changing this penalty could definitely be done and I don't think it'd matter much but there also isn't much reason for it to begin with.

[Kaiserklein]

No it's not 2500 res for 8v, you're mixing things up. The card almost pays off when you get the strads, so then it's just basically 2 extra banks... For the cost of 2 extra banks. So yeah roughly 1500 res for 8 vils, compared to a 1000 res shipment for 8 vils usually. Also inf combat has nothing to do with getting more banks
Anyway it's not really relevant since in a large majority of match ups you can't afford to go that greedy.

[duckzilla]

So yeah roughly 1500 res for 8 vils, compared to a 1000 res shipment for 8 vils usually.

Let's also not forget that these 8 "vills" lose in value quite fast, since their gather rate is not upgradeable except for the +15% card from age IV (which is the weakest "faster gold gathering" card in the game).
And it is still not getting 2 banks for the cost of 2 banks, but the speed nerf on top. Who would ship an 8 vill shipment which debuffs your entire army?

Especially weird is that all this changes on water maps, where Dutch can easily become economically superior to all other countries from early to late game.

[deleted_user0]

Seems okay, but honestly, I would make a crate swap.

Swap 100g-->100f on gold start and 100f-->100g on food start. This whole civ is more of a crate lottery than people think.

[zoom]

Coin start break Dutch balance, in a lot of match-ups.

[Hazza54321]

Wood is a coin start for dutch and coin is a wood start for dutch. seems fair to me.

[deleted_user0]

Not sure if that's fair. Wood is still the slowest to gather by far (after dutch shadow gold up) and with treas you might get a free tp. Or much faster bank. Food and coin swap sounds more legit to me.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Wood is a coin start for dutch and coin is a wood start for dutch. seems fair to me.

Wood start is good actually. You can build a TP or a market with it, that's nice. Coin start is really good true.

[zoom]

Wood is a coin start for dutch and coin is a wood start for dutch. seems fair to me.

The difference is that Dutch doesn't suffer as much, in the case of wood, as the majority of other civilizations do, in the case of coin.