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somppukunkku wrote:It's quite a big deal assuming a very late game. It's 10 vills non-pop. Not very significant in 1v1 though.

somppukunkku wrote:We don't really have any evidence brit being op at all. Even erik went 0-3 as them in monociv cup.
I would really like to see even solid winning streaks against fre/germ among equal players to consider them being near op. Just like otto, they can be quite good and slightly favoured in a high res map such as hudson bay or arkansas. However, in maps like tassili or arizona they are rather weak and probably worse than fre/germ. They are balanced.

Another thing is that brits don't even have eco theory which means they have 10% worse eco than ger/fre when it goes to super late game.

somppukunkku wrote:that was quite a minor point anyway. the main point was that brits are max mediocre and there is no any proof that's they are not (not overplayed, no dominating player).

also, we should consider the typical Kaiser-bias.

Kaiserklein wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Ok, what match ups do brits even lose on a standard ep map?

India : Close MU. Brit can win it if you play very precisely, but one mistake and you're dead.
Yeah that's one of the worst brit mus imo. And still not clear if brits lose it.

Iro : Somehow the MU is hard. You can't semi ff because else you die to the age 3 timing, and the amount of skirm/goon iro can get is insane. With the 6/5 kanya shipments, the 5 cuirs and the explorer ability, Iro can also deal with the longbowmen.
I haven't played this MU enough, but it might well be Iro favoured. It's definitely not an easy MU for brit though.
I've played this a lot as iro and it always feels brit favoured.

I don't know. I haven't played it a lot, but when I played it against Somppu, it almost felt Iro favoured lol

Spain : This MU is slightly brit favoured but it's not as easy as what people think. There's no way brit can age to fortress, and musk/huss timings can fail sometimes. It's definitely not hopeless.
Come on it's totally brit favoured. You can just stay colo and spam musk huss with ups, pull vils if needed to kill falcs. You don't even need a timing or an age up.
I don't know if you can... You're going to have a better eco, but vet rod/skirm beats musk/huss, especially if he has 2 falcs.

Otto : Dealing with the ff/fi shit is always annoying. Brit should probably win this MU, but again, one mistake and you're dead.
Quite sure brits win this if they scout properly. That's just otto, you can cheesed regardless of the civ you're playing, just because they have a lot of all in timings that can fuck you. But with proper scouting, I'd say otto wins only if they have a good stagecoach.

Yes, if you scout properly and don't fuck up you win. That's a bit if though, because Otto has so many cheesy strat, and if you're 30 sec late because you didn't adapt in time you're dead.

Dutch : Slightly brit favoured, but the 5w manor nerf seems to hurt in this MU. I used to have easy time winning it, but now it looks close.
This mu is super easy. I'd be willing to play it vs you as brits even if my brits suck. Same for spain actually.

I'm trash with Dutch. I could play Spain though.

France : Honestly, with the manor nerf, I feel like it's almost fre favoured. There's not much you can do against a TP musk semi. As brit you have to cut some eco to deny stagecoach, then the cuir/falc timing is very scary, and in middle game you don't even have a better eco, and your army gets raped once cav combat comes in.
Whenever I win this mu as fr it's because my opponent fucked up honestly. You have a tiny window to push, and usually it just fails if properly defended. And you also have to be careful about colo stuff, you can lose with falcs + vet musks vs pure musks lol. Though if you scout it and go skirm/goon you should be fine I guess.
Stagecoaching as france is not realistic btw. Unless brits go for full VC boom like you do, but that's probably just not the thing to do on a stagecoach map. Brits are a fast civ and can totally deny the tp line. Go play erik in this mu and try to stagecoach, we'll see how it ends.

"You have a tiny window". Against what build?
If you mean against a semi ff, you have a rather big window, and you have about the same eco anyway. Also, as I said, you don't even need to damage him with a timing if he didn't send VC, because your army in late fortress will just win thanks to upgraded cuirs.
To be fair, colonial play as brit is probably the most challenging way to play, but it doesn't work. And of course, you only stage coach vs VC lol.

Germany : Another close MU. Most players just get angry and suicide their army, while they could just wait and win in late fortress because the 200/200 Ger army beats the 200/200 brit army, even after the manor nerf. Brit has a strong timing though.
What? Ger has shitty units compared to brits. Goons > ww, huss > uhlans, lbs > skirms, it's not even close. And uhlans are not pop efficient. The only way to win this mu as ger is to hit a fortress timing when brit goes out for hunts (because if you push in the brit base you lose to pathing), but usually it just fails, unless it's a low food map where brit has to go out early.
The dream brit composition beats Germany, but in a real game Brit will have to hold, so he won't have that composition. He will have a few goons, maybe some huss, but mostly lb/pikes. And uhlan mass with cav combat+skirms+9br will beat pike/lb+some goons/some huss.

Russia : Well, this MU is hard, and I still haven't found a way to win it consistently as brit. It feels like you have to gamble.
It's a close MU yeah, depends a lot on the map. Don't think brits lose it overall though.

So imo, the only match ups where brits struggle are india, russia and otto on some maps. And they're not even losing them, it's close. That's why I think brits are too strong.

The current EP is balanced, that's why some civs almost don't lose a MU. For example, China, India, Aztecs, Iro, France and Germany have a shot to win almost every MU.

Kaiserklein wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Ok, what match ups do brits even lose on a standard ep map?

India : Close MU. Brit can win it if you play very precisely, but one mistake and you're dead.
Yeah that's one of the worst brit mus imo. And still not clear if brits lose it.

Iro : Somehow the MU is hard. You can't semi ff because else you die to the age 3 timing, and the amount of skirm/goon iro can get is insane. With the 6/5 kanya shipments, the 5 cuirs and the explorer ability, Iro can also deal with the longbowmen.
I haven't played this MU enough, but it might well be Iro favoured. It's definitely not an easy MU for brit though.
I've played this a lot as iro and it always feels brit favoured.

Spain : This MU is slightly brit favoured but it's not as easy as what people think. There's no way brit can age to fortress, and musk/huss timings can fail sometimes. It's definitely not hopeless.
Come on it's totally brit favoured. You can just stay colo and spam musk huss with ups, pull vils if needed to kill falcs. You don't even need a timing or an age up.

Otto : Dealing with the ff/fi shit is always annoying. Brit should probably win this MU, but again, one mistake and you're dead.
Quite sure brits win this if they scout properly. That's just otto, you can cheesed regardless of the civ you're playing, just because they have a lot of all in timings that can fuck you. But with proper scouting, I'd say otto wins only if they have a good stagecoach.

Dutch : Slightly brit favoured, but the 5w manor nerf seems to hurt in this MU. I used to have easy time winning it, but now it looks close.
This mu is super easy. I'd be willing to play it vs you as brits even if my brits suck. Same for spain actually.

France : Honestly, with the manor nerf, I feel like it's almost fre favoured. There's not much you can do against a TP musk semi. As brit you have to cut some eco to deny stagecoach, then the cuir/falc timing is very scary, and in middle game you don't even have a better eco, and your army gets raped once cav combat comes in.
Whenever I win this mu as fr it's because my opponent fucked up honestly. You have a tiny window to push, and usually it just fails if properly defended. And you also have to be careful about colo stuff, you can lose with falcs + vet musks vs pure musks lol. Though if you scout it and go skirm/goon you should be fine I guess.
Stagecoaching as france is not realistic btw. Unless brits go for full VC boom like you do, but that's probably just not the thing to do on a stagecoach map. Brits are a fast civ and can totally deny the tp line. Go play erik in this mu and try to stagecoach, we'll see how it ends.

Germany : Another close MU. Most players just get angry and suicide their army, while they could just wait and win in late fortress because the 200/200 Ger army beats the 200/200 brit army, even after the manor nerf. Brit has a strong timing though.
What? Ger has shitty units compared to brits. Goons > ww, huss > uhlans, lbs > skirms, it's not even close. And uhlans are not pop efficient. The only way to win this mu as ger is to hit a fortress timing when brit goes out for hunts (because if you push in the brit base you lose to pathing), but usually it just fails, unless it's a low food map where brit has to go out early.

Russia : Well, this MU is hard, and I still haven't found a way to win it consistently as brit. It feels like you have to gamble.
It's a close MU yeah, depends a lot on the map. Don't think brits lose it overall though.

So imo, the only match ups where brits struggle are india, russia and otto on some maps. And they're not even losing them, it's close. That's why I think brits are too strong.

deleted_user wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Ok, what match ups do brits even lose on a standard ep map?

I watched you lose to Soldier(?) Russia as Brit like 5x on stream.

It was somppu, and 2 times I think lol, not 5. Iirc it was on low food maps like Alaska, and after 6h of streaming or so. Plus I don't even have good brits, and it was still super close games.
Anyway yeah russia vs brit is close.

EDIT: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/397565468?t=5h15m
=> yeah 2 times, both on alaska, after 5+ hours of streaming/commenting.

princeofkabul wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:

Show hidden quotes

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Ok, what match ups do brits even lose on a standard ep map?

India : Close MU. Brit can win it if you play very precisely, but one mistake and you're dead.
Yeah that's one of the worst brit mus imo. And still not clear if brits lose it.
Iro : Somehow the MU is hard. You can't semi ff because else you die to the age 3 timing, and the amount of skirm/goon iro can get is insane. With the 6/5 kanya shipments, the 5 cuirs and the explorer ability, Iro can also deal with the longbowmen.
I haven't played this MU enough, but it might well be Iro favoured. It's definitely not an easy MU for brit though.
I've played this a lot as iro and it always feels brit favoured.

Spain : This MU is slightly brit favoured but it's not as easy as what people think. There's no way brit can age to fortress, and musk/huss timings can fail sometimes. It's definitely not hopeless.
Come on it's totally brit favoured. You can just stay colo and spam musk huss with ups, pull vils if needed to kill falcs. You don't even need a timing or an age up.

Otto : Dealing with the ff/fi shit is always annoying. Brit should probably win this MU, but again, one mistake and you're dead.
Quite sure brits win this if they scout properly. That's just otto, you can cheesed regardless of the civ you're playing, just because they have a lot of all in timings that can fuck you. But with proper scouting, I'd say otto wins only if they have a good stagecoach.

Dutch : Slightly brit favoured, but the 5w manor nerf seems to hurt in this MU. I used to have easy time winning it, but now it looks close.
This mu is super easy. I'd be willing to play it vs you as brits even if my brits suck. Same for spain actually.

France : Honestly, with the manor nerf, I feel like it's almost fre favoured. There's not much you can do against a TP musk semi. As brit you have to cut some eco to deny stagecoach, then the cuir/falc timing is very scary, and in middle game you don't even have a better eco, and your army gets raped once cav combat comes in.
Whenever I win this mu as fr it's because my opponent fucked up honestly. You have a tiny window to push, and usually it just fails if properly defended. And you also have to be careful about colo stuff, you can lose with falcs + vet musks vs pure musks lol. Though if you scout it and go skirm/goon you should be fine I guess.
Stagecoaching as france is not realistic btw. Unless brits go for full VC boom like you do, but that's probably just not the thing to do on a stagecoach map. Brits are a fast civ and can totally deny the tp line. Go play erik in this mu and try to stagecoach, we'll see how it ends.

Germany : Another close MU. Most players just get angry and suicide their army, while they could just wait and win in late fortress because the 200/200 Ger army beats the 200/200 brit army, even after the manor nerf. Brit has a strong timing though.
What? Ger has shitty units compared to brits. Goons > ww, huss > uhlans, lbs > skirms, it's not even close. And uhlans are not pop efficient. The only way to win this mu as ger is to hit a fortress timing when brit goes out for hunts (because if you push in the brit base you lose to pathing), but usually it just fails, unless it's a low food map where brit has to go out early.

Russia : Well, this MU is hard, and I still haven't found a way to win it consistently as brit. It feels like you have to gamble.
It's a close MU yeah, depends a lot on the map. Don't think brits lose it overall though.

So imo, the only match ups where brits struggle are india, russia and otto on some maps. And they're not even losing them, it's close. That's why I think brits are too strong.

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deleted_user wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Ok, what match ups do brits even lose on a standard ep map?

I watched you lose to Soldier(?) Russia as Brit like 5x on stream.

It was somppu, and 2 times I think lol, not 5. Iirc it was on low food maps like Alaska, and after 6h of streaming or so. Plus I don't even have good brits, and it was still super close games.
Anyway yeah russia vs brit is close.

EDIT: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/397565468?t=5h15m
=> yeah 2 times, both on alaska, after 5+ hours of streaming/commenting.

everytime whether I open kaiser twitch stream or now, a past stream linked on esoc that fucking song, that fucking smoke on the fucking water, I swear to god. every single time. Almost as common phenomena as Hazza stream and in da club.

deleted_user wrote:Lol, it's really bad.

pecelot wrote:just send AA and research military drummers