Aztecs Discussion Thread

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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

I would like removing puma siege trooper tag but less siege also.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by charlemango »

Can someone give a comprehensive rundown on why Aztecs are bad? From what I can gather:

1. Mace are weak vs other skirms and bow units (lb, yumi), and super weak vs cav/artillery
2. Have to commit hard to either rush or booming, but doing either one leaves huge weaknesses and is pretty all-in
3. Coyote runners get killed by other cav, musk, and even skirms so hard to punish even 1 unit compositions from opponent
4. Fortress eco is weak and hard to make good army composition

Seems like a pretty hard civ to change tbh, because there's a big decision fork in choosing to buff eco or units. Could really change the feel of the civ and players won't like that.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

I think the issue is that on the RE patch aggressive play was rewarded because maps were quite poor. On EP people can get away more easily with defensive/boomy play, so aztecs are kinda left without their bread and butter strategy. Aztec units themselves aren't too bad (maces have high dps, coyo are decent after the coyote combat card, pumas are quite strong except for the artillery tag). Aztecs also usually have a hard time aging to fortress because their politicians suck and you basically get almost no bonus for aging, and also aztecs aren't that comfortable in fortress, even though basically the meta on EP is that most games reach the fortress age. Honestly i think aztec politicians could be looked a bit into, but i think this is a bit of a controversial topic.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

Buff coyo combat?
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Coyotes base are abit shit if im honest. That combined with siege trooper tag for pumas make them so weak to cav.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

Just remove the siege trooper tag, it's used for units that are uncommon and are countered way too easily by mm in the one area they're good.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Maybe just remove mm bonus siege troops? :D
edit: oops was late
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

Hazza54321 wrote:Coyotes base are abit shit if im honest. That combined with siege trooper tag for pumas make them so weak to cav.

Also the siege trooper tag is a buff to pikes as well as a nerf as it means buildings do half damage to them. So it's not all bad.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

somppukunkku wrote:Maybe just remove mm bonus siege troops? :D
edit: oops was late

I think it's good that mm counter petards
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

Skirmishers doing 2x vs ERKS and coyote runners only having 10% rr really seem to me to be a rather significant obstacle.

Normally cavalry takes 0.75 from skirms, then 20-30rr takes that down to close to half damage. Coyote on the other hand not only have significantly less hp but take almost the full brunt from skirmisher volleys and dont even do that significant of damage in return

Solution - increase range resist, potentially buff base attack or add in a "asian cav" style multi to help combat skirmisher masses. (Sometimes i wonder if coyote cover mode was originally intended as its rr)

Eagle Runners suffer from a similar problem, in that they take 2x damage from their counters, whereas other ranged cav take 1.5 from skirmishers. This is a HORRIBLE inconsistency and should be seriously considered an oversight when the "skirms counter dragoons now" patch was implemented.

The other aztec idea i would submit to the balance team would be reducing the train time on warrior priests, as warrior priest booming is currently a significant investment, moreso than it probably needs to be.

Also, yeah those politicians are very underwhelming. This is probably one of the bigger issues to look into but may be the most controversial too
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

charlemango wrote:Can someone give a comprehensive rundown on why Aztecs are bad? From what I can gather:

1. Mace are weak vs other skirms and bow units (lb, yumi), and super weak vs cav/artillery
2. Have to commit hard to either rush or booming, but doing either one leaves huge weaknesses and is pretty all-in
3. Coyote runners get killed by other cav, musk, and even skirms so hard to punish even 1 unit compositions from opponent
4. Fortress eco is weak and hard to make good army composition

Seems like a pretty hard civ to change tbh, because there's a big decision fork in choosing to buff eco or units. Could really change the feel of the civ and players won't like that.

Imo you lose all the MUs but Japan as Aztec on a standard map, that's why it's the worst civ imo.

I think you could buff their fortress age (like give them fast age up to both colonial and fortress although it's awkward, or auto upgrade their age 2 units because you can't afford to spend 600w/600c considering your eco). You could also maybe buff the coyotes (they're shit tbh, even with coyote combat and the war dance), and remove the mm multiplier vs pumas.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

Reducing cost or building time of nobles huts could be a solid buff too, since you cant even start building the stupid things until you are in fortress and they cost a full 300 res
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

dansil92 wrote:Reducing cost or building time of nobles huts could be a solid buff too, since you cant even start building the stupid things until you are in fortress and they cost a full 300 res

That's not really "solid" buff though, because you almost never the fortress age, and you usually want to age with the 2 noble huts anyway (unless you go for the WC laming).
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Btw @Diarouga came to my mind that do you think it's viable to age up slow to colonial using hero age up? You get spin attack, some extra stats to hero. And whenever you hit fortress, also your hero upgrades normally. Then it's possible to go to fortress with fast age and spin attack. 1 hut or 2 skulls are not super good age ups anyway.

Probably if you go slow age you want to ship 3+3 vills+boats or 3v schoners ? Atleast w/ tp start.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
dansil92 wrote:Reducing cost or building time of nobles huts could be a solid buff too, since you cant even start building the stupid things until you are in fortress and they cost a full 300 res

That's not really "solid" buff though, because you almost never the fortress age, and you usually want to age with the 2 noble huts anyway (unless you go for the WC laming).

Isn't it just 1 nobles hut travois?
I'm testing in game and i'm only getting one
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

If you go 3v/schooners I think that -250w is a huge deal, so I'd still age with the rax.
I guess 3v/3boats could be decent, I'd need to try it but the issue with slow age up is that your 3wp shipment is delayed by 1min (which is worth about 360VS) which is a big deal. If you had like a 2wp shipment in age 1, I'd prob slow age up every game and send 3v/2wp.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Anyway imo the way to go is to try to make other age up options viable for aztecs, as others were saying here. Still having the messenger for the fortress age would be a game changer imo.
Maybe make aztec warrior priest dance available in age1? Not sure if broken, but it could be used in transition if you choose a longer age up.
Give skull knights ranged resist instead of melee resist?

Actually the spin attack could be decent if there is a big treasure to pick up that can boost your early colonial because spin attack is 105 damage, add x3 vs guardians and 3 area of effect, basically clears everything up in a second.

Unrelated to the age up issue:
Give coyos 20% rr?
Buff arrow knight attack? Maybe reduce artillery multiplier to compensate
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Djigit »

Give coyote runners a 1.05 multiplier vs hand cav :pop:
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

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Post by dansil92 »

30rr may honestly be needed for coyotes, i mean all the other ulsuper low hp cav has 30rr and they at least usually get high attack as well which coyote don't
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

The way it works in aoe2, i know it's a very different game, is that cyotes (in their case they're eagle runner knights) are weaker than cav but have an added damage amount, it's like 4 against cav or something. Also Cyotes should be worse seeing as ytou don't need a stable to make them so making them actually effective vs normal cav might be overpowered, especially seeing as aztec has arguably the best anti-cav in the game.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

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Post by Garja »

Coyote have 10%rr because otherwise they are too hard to pick off with z move and too easy to be overkilled with manual micro. The same applies to ruyters.
I'd rather buff base HP just to make them slightly stronger vs cav as they cant even escape if caught before the combat card. However the unit is fine for its cost so it needs a cost increment. This can be combined with the fact that unit is too food heavy and thus cost can be tweaked to something like 80f 30w.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Yeah would prefer base hp> anything. High rr would make them similar to rattans (broken)
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

But rattans aren't hard countered by dragoons, which is what really makes them so broken...
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Yea sure but coyotes with 30% would act in a similar way
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

Well goons do 2.25x vs a unit with like 198 ranged hp and thats fairly um.... whats the word... well its like using abus guns on strelets
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