Aztecs Discussion Thread

[gamevideo113]

Temple of Centeotl Support - Ships 18 Macehualtins and Macehualtins get +1x vs. Heavy Infantry; costs 1,000 coin

Temple of Xipe Totec Support - Ships 11 Coyote Runners and Coyote Runners get +20% HP; costs 1,000 coin

or

Temple of Xipe Totec Support - Ships 11 Coyote Runners and Coyote Runners get +20% Ranged Resist; costs 1,000 coin

[Hazza54321]

Love those actually

[Garja]

Maces don't need extra multiplier against HI. If anything +2 range. But that's already ERK specical card so I'd swap that for HP.
Coyote runners already get 20% hp from their combat card so attack is actually fine.

[gamevideo113]

I think macehualtins and aztecs in general fare really poorly in the late game against heavy infantry, due to both limited range and only 2x multipliers. I recently played one game against dutch that ended in the lategame and i felt like i really didn't have an effective way to deal with skirm+halbs. Coyotes were fragile, maces didn't do much damage. I even tried mixing jaguars and maces but had to resign soon after.

Also, yes, coyote already get HP in colonial with the colonial card, so probably giving them more HP is not very elegant. Range resist would be the close second alternative.
The problem is that ranged units benefit the most from attack upgrades, and melee units from HP upgrades. In other words, both the coyo and mace temples kinda suck and are not viable, and aztecs can't really rely on pure ERK despite them being very strong.

[Hazza54321]

mace do need vs hi lategame for sure

[Garja]

2x + good base attack + attack dance is totally fine. They just lack range. This is kinda shit because they have low hp (so musks will kill them fast) and also vs skirms.
For the record those temple cards are already viable. In fact all the temple cards are. It's more about optimizing them.

[Youssef]

what if mace elite upgrade increase +1 range and champion upgrade +1 range.
in late game aztec can do nothing vs skirm goon mass.

[zoom]

I would like removing puma siege trooper tag but less siege also.

Definitely happy to consider this, during the beta. I think it's quite risky, though. It's no coincidence that the Puma Spearman has the "Siege Trooper" tag.

Yea sure but coyotes with 30% would act in a similar way

Except they would take nearly triple damage from light cavalry.

[zoom]

Buff coyo combat?

Agreed – and nerf base values, too!

[zoom]

Temple of Centeotl Support - Ships 18 Macehualtins and Macehualtins get +1x vs. Heavy Infantry; costs 1,000 coin

Temple of Xipe Totec Support - Ships 11 Coyote Runners and Coyote Runners get +20% HP; costs 1,000 coin

or

Temple of Xipe Totec Support - Ships 11 Coyote Runners and Coyote Runners get +20% Ranged Resist; costs 1,000 coin

I think these are some good ideas.

[zoom]

what if mace elite upgrade increase +1 range and champion upgrade +1 range.
in late game aztec can do nothing vs skirm goon mass.

It's an option, but it makes more sense to add such effects to the Temple shipment, unless the unit needs the bonus, early Fortress Age.

[aqwer]

Warrior priest should not take pop space. It is just against the general rule i.e. units that have built limit doesn't cost pop space e.g. war dog, disciple, Indian tigers .

[Kaiserklein]

It's normal that coyotes lose to cav, they're more of a polyvalent unit. I often see people complaining about coyos sucking vs skirms, so why not give the extra rr. 30% is obviously too much but maybe 20% would work.

[dansil92]

It's normal that coyotes lose to cav, they're more of a polyvalent unit. I often see people complaining about coyos sucking vs skirms, so why not give the extra rr. 30% is obviously too much but maybe 20% would work.

The other option of course, would be to give skirms a larger penalty tocoyotes without making them too powerful vs goons/musks. Currently skirms do 0.75 vs coyote. If IN ADDITION to that tag an 0.75 (or similar such as 0.8) vs ALL abstract light infantry was added then they would do roughly 0.56 damage to coyote and would fix the Eagle Runner anomaly. I think a little over half damage makes sense from a counter system perspective. Pikes and musks and goons all have reduced damage to coyote to stop them just getting dumped on instantly, why not skirms getting an increased reduction as well? Messing with armour might make them too strong vs musks, which they already are (imo) too strong against - especially ashi and ruskets

[Garja]

coyotes are not weak, it is just hard to mass the cav-equivalent amount because of super shitty food/wood ratio. Make them cost like 70f 30w and you see results already.

[Lukas_L99]

I don't really see an issue with coyotes honestly.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Coyotes suck, even with the upgrade card.

[dansil92]

Coyote barely beat an equal cost or pop of strong skirmishers. Jaegers or iron troops just straight up beat them. Yeah, coyote are fantastic vs strelets, xbows, but anything stronger than that and its a joke to call them a strong counter. I still say a further reduced multiplier vs coyo would be in order, but its just really a poor unit generally. Garja is also definitely correct that the food cost ratio is quite ridiculous as well

[Garja]

Jaegers and especially iron troops also beat their counters if they outnumber (e.g. jaegers from saloon with german merc combat).
Coyote beat ranged infantry harder than huss because the pathing makes them harder to be countered and they also have way higher dps per cost than huss.

[dansil92]

High dps, yes... hp, no. Very hard hitting unit but so squishy. Like half an uhlan but uhlans get much better range resist to compensate

[Garja]

It's not about the hp but rather the pathing. Goons tend ot overkill a lot whenever one single coyote gets closer than the others. And Meelee units don't counter them as hard as they do to cav. Also whenever you have too many coyotes compared to maces you can cover mode them and they're actually useful, while cav can't do the same.

[dansil92]

I was very pleased to hear about the revert to ERKs back to RE resist and speed. Since the discussion seemed to focus on keeping viability in early fortress, may i make the suggestion that ERKs are given 'colonial' stats and shadowtech to fortress age to their current base stats? This would prevent them overscaling from cards and upgrades while maintaining their current early fortress viability

[Garja]

Aztecs sort of need a long range unit imo. Arrow knight should deal siege damage on its ranged attack. That way the unit could be used on regular basis and not just as shitty culverin/mortar. Multiplier vs artillery nerfed accordingly. Cost increased to something like 50f 80g. If the change is successful and the unit can be used on a regular basis then can revert mace temple card ot only grant +20% HP.

[Hazza54321]

arrow knight doing siege damage seems quite broken to me.

[chronique]

You are not afraid with the full AK-ERK compo? looks pretty scary on paper.