Aztecs Discussion Thread

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Italy Garja
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

ye ruthless card is useless now just give it back to erk too so I can raid cdbs with it
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by n0el »

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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

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Post by Superfly47 »

What if Aztec merc cards cost 500g, upgrade boost would not be changed, but the units given would be reduced. Getting current cost of 1000g is a real pain, especially if Aztec wants to get more than one merc card. It's really unfair for mace and coyotes since they need those upgrades to be decent in age 3. It's different from Sioux merc upgrade cards where their cav and wakina are good even without them. EKR are also strong without the merc card, so EKR merc card could stay unchanged.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

agreed with that^^
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by iNcog »

That's a pretty good idea. It'd be quite the buff too.
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

Superfly47 wrote:What if Aztec merc cards cost 500g, upgrade boost would not be changed, but the units given would be reduced. Getting current cost of 1000g is a real pain, especially if Aztec wants to get more than one merc card. It's really unfair for mace and coyotes since they need those upgrades to be decent in age 3. It's different from Sioux merc upgrade cards where their cav and wakina are good even without them. EKR are also strong without the merc card, so EKR merc card could stay unchanged.
So essentially, the colonial war hut units merc cards to 500 coin, erk stays 1000, jpk and skulls were already adjusted, janey card should be 500 coin too instead of 1500 lol

Vill card probably should stay 1000, though 750 might be reasonable.

I am 100% on board with superfly here
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Superfly47 wrote:What if Aztec merc cards cost 500g, upgrade boost would not be changed, but the units given would be reduced. Getting current cost of 1000g is a real pain, especially if Aztec wants to get more than one merc card. It's really unfair for mace and coyotes since they need those upgrades to be decent in age 3. It's different from Sioux merc upgrade cards where their cav and wakina are good even without them. EKR are also strong without the merc card, so EKR merc card could stay unchanged.
That was my initial suggestion during development and the beta, last year, and – as he tends to – Garja raised a good point: The Temple shipments are designed not to be viable early on, but since they are punitively weak (with the exception of the Eagle Runner Knight one), making them stronger seems sensible, when the respective units are underperforming, later on. Coyote Runners (with "Coyote Combat") and Macehualtins are both fine units before the late Fortress Age. Making these shipments viable (too) early seems risky. The fact that you cannot afford them right away is completely by design. Still, if players agree that you should be able to afford them early, it's worth consideration. The first thing to consider is whether the current changes to those two shipments are satisfactory.

Also, please note that these Fortress Age support shipments consistently cost 1000c each, across all three TWC civilizations. It's no definitive reason, by any means, but it's something to keep in mind.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Speaking of ideas: What about moving the "Knight Combat" shipment to Industrial Age?
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:Dont give them siege attack pleaseeeeeeee
At this point it seems unlikely to happen. Like I said, it's both risky and arguably unwarranted. Ultimately it'll come down to feedback.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

zoom wrote:Speaking of ideas: What about moving the "Knight Combat" shipment to Industrial Age?
What for, its not the most common shipment sent.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

zoom wrote:Speaking of ideas: What about moving the "Knight Combat" shipment to Industrial Age?
no.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

zoom wrote:Speaking of ideas: What about moving the "Knight Combat" shipment to Industrial Age?
Great idea ! Let's nerf Aztecs.
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Post by richard »

zoom wrote:Speaking of ideas: What about moving the "Knight Combat" shipment to Industrial Age?
People dont want ideas, people want balance. And with the least number of changes as possible.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by harcha »

i realize that azzy need a boost but the 2 wh seem a bit ridiculous. the units are not op in of themselves but the speed at which azzy pulls together a good composition is scary, not sure how it can be countered.
for reference iro is supposed to have the extra travois at every ageup by design. should iro discovery ageup be boosted to 3 travois just to equal the azzy 2 wh (2 travois + iro inherent bonus in form of extra travois)?
i think the value is just too high, there is a colonial age shipment for 2 outposts/blockhouses, so this is really comparable to a shipment in terms of value. what if we boost quartermaster to something like 600-650w? would that make sense?

i propose alternative to the 2 wh ageup - revert this ageup back to 1 wh and 10% boost. then add another small boost like 30% discount on wh or 10% military train time reduction
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Qosashvili93 »

Also now when 2 wh age up is standsrt that means aztec has fast age up option to fortress too
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

I still stand by 1 war hut 1 wp
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by harcha »

dansil92 wrote:I still stand by 1 war hut 1 wp
didn't think of it, that seems very elegant

this would also be a way to overpop WPs going to fortress if fortress ageup is 2 nobles + 2 WP or so.
alternatively this could turn azzy even more into a turtle civ if you implemented ageup to colonial with 1 wh + 2 wp negating the 3 wp card slightly
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

That's what happens when you implement random changes without testing because "you have a great game knowledge from watching streams".
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Qosashvili93 wrote:Also now when 2 wh age up is standsrt that means aztec has fast age up option to fortress too
Yep, this is another can of worms that probably hasn't been explored yet since the 2WH change hasn't been out for a long time. What's stopping you from doing a 2 WH semi and benefiting from the fortress buffs Aztecs got in EP7?
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Qosashvili93 »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Qosashvili93 wrote:Also now when 2 wh age up is standsrt that means aztec has fast age up option to fortress too
Yep, this is another can of worms that probably hasn't been explored yet since the 2WH change hasn't been out for a long time. What's stopping you from doing a 2 WH semi and benefiting from the fortress buffs Aztecs got in EP7?
Idk nothing we already see that yesterday
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by PancakePrincess »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:That's what happens when you implement random changes without testing because "you have a great game knowledge from watching streams".
Sorry, not trying to be mean or anything, but didn't you say this about the change when the patch was released?

"However the 3rd change is irrelevant imo. I don't think that slow age up is going to be viable because of how the civ works. FI especially won't be a thing with slow age up because it delays the wp boom way too much."

Like I understand being frustrated with the patch, but when even the best Aztec player can't seem to anticipate what the change might bring it seems kinda mean to formulate your criticism in such an sarcastic way.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Yeah many players have been against this change from the very start. 2 WH travois and +10% is probably the best colonial politician in the game. It’s worth like 1100-1200 vs (=550/600wood) and on top of that there is also the WH buff. This is such a huge buff for both aggressive and defensive play...
Probably it makes the aztec FF/semi-FF viable out of nowhere, since nobody in their right minds would ever push into a base with a TC and 2 boosted WH. I’m pretty sure soon somebody will find a way to abuse this change, since aztecs have also received a ton of other buffs lately as well.

At least i hope diarouga will enjoy laming aztecs in EP8 :P
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

PancakePrincess wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:That's what happens when you implement random changes without testing because "you have a great game knowledge from watching streams".
Sorry, not trying to be mean or anything, but didn't you say this about the change when the patch was released?

"However the 3rd change is irrelevant imo. I don't think that slow age up is going to be viable because of how the civ works. FI especially won't be a thing with slow age up because it delays the wp boom way too much."

Like I understand being frustrated with the patch, but when even the best Aztec player can't seem to anticipate what the change might bring it seems kinda mean to formulate your criticism in such an sarcastic way.
I did say that indeed. I maintain that FI won't be a thing with wp boom but I was wrong about the effects of this change, it's actually big.

My point is that it's impossible to predict the effects of random changes. So what's the lesson ? Stop implementing 50 random changes every patch because it breaks the game balance for no reason. There's a very important rule when you study science (and Zoi doesn't seem to know or understand that), it says that when you want to draw conclusions from an experiment, you need to change only one parameter at a time.
That's why you need minimal change and testing to reach a good balance. Testing 50 changes is pointless because you won't be able to draw conclusions from it, that's why people stopped wasting their time testing the Zoi patches.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by PancakePrincess »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
PancakePrincess wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:That's what happens when you implement random changes without testing because "you have a great game knowledge from watching streams".
Sorry, not trying to be mean or anything, but didn't you say this about the change when the patch was released?

"However the 3rd change is irrelevant imo. I don't think that slow age up is going to be viable because of how the civ works. FI especially won't be a thing with slow age up because it delays the wp boom way too much."

Like I understand being frustrated with the patch, but when even the best Aztec player can't seem to anticipate what the change might bring it seems kinda mean to formulate your criticism in such an sarcastic way.
I did say that indeed. I maintain that FI won't be a thing with wp boom but I was wrong about the effects of this change, it's actually big.

My point is that it's impossible to predict the effects of random changes. So what's the lesson ? Stop implementing 50 random changes every patch because it breaks the game balance for no reason. There's a very important rule when you study science (and Zoi doesn't seem to know or understand that), it says that when you want to draw conclusions from an experiment, you need to change only one parameter at a time.
That's why you need minimal change and testing to reach a good balance. Testing 50 changes is pointless because you won't be able to draw conclusions from it, that's why people stopped wasting their time testing the Zoi patches.
I suppose you do have a point in regards to your last statement. However, I'm in no way qualified to really comment on that I guess.

Thanks for clearing up that you simply assessed the change wrong at the time though. I was a bit confused!
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

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Post by Kaiserklein »

So tired of people jumping on conclusions. Every patch it's the same story. We've seen like 5 games (not even top level) and suddenly ogm 2 wh age up azzy becomes unbeatable.

That shit is so overrated, it's like everyone decided to ignore the drawbacks of the slow age. Sure it's situationally stronger I guess, but it's not strictly superior.

Reminds me of when everyone was crying about the new unction being so op. Guess what, everyone forgot about it now...
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