Aztecs Discussion Thread

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

yes, we need stealth urumi... cuz that's not retarded as fuck

On the downside, it would completely break balance. On the upside, diarouga might stop complaining that Aztecs are underpowered. Sounds like a win to me.

[Mitoe]

Disregarding the idea to make them like Urumi, I do think JPK could use better multipliers against cavalry (Maybe just 0.25 or 0.5 increase). They're just kinda useless right now because they don't really counter anything very well. Or maybe increasing their speed by 0.5. Definitely not both of those changes though.

[dansil92]

They wouldn't be exactly like Urumi they would not have a range on their attack, rof of 1.0, splash damage or 30 rr, nor would they shadowtech with ages. Im essentially saying make them still situational (mace usually would be better) but still have a bulkier anti-infantry unit that doesnt get crapped on by skirms instantly. As for the stealth, idk no one uses stealth anyways so i cant see it being a huge issue. Iro gets a stealth skirm so cant be that bad

[Garja]

JPK are strong they're just slow so not used. They have more attack than coyotes and multipliers vs anything. Also very high hp.

[gamevideo113]

Yeah best way to make them more viable is +0.5 speed, but that’s the case for basically any melee inf unit, so i’m not sure it’s warranted

[Zeke]

The only type of unit that JPK are good at counter is hand infantry like rods and changdao (the only two common hand infantry in fortress, maybe yamabushi as well) thanks to their ×3 multiplier against HI

[Darwin_]

They are also quite good against musk/huss.

[Zeke]

They are also quite good against musk/huss.

JPK are not very good at fighting huss since they do relatively low damage to cav (only ×2 multiplier and not so high base attack), have low melee resist (0.1, compares to halb which has 0.2 now), and relatively slow speed (4.5, compares to puma which has 5). They are good at fighting musk in a very limited situation, where they can surround the musk (by stealth mode or poped from building), otherwise half of them will die on the way to get contact with musk if the opponent can do basic kite

[Darwin_]

JPK die in 9 hits from a huss and kill a huss in 8 hits. They die in 11 shots or 22 hits from a musk and kill a musk in 3 hits.
Elite Pumas die in 7 hits from a huss and kill a huss in 5 hits. They die in 8 shots or 17 hits from a musk and kill a musk in 15 hits.

So yes, JPK are worse against hussars, but they still trade cost effectively and do MUCH better against musks than pumas.

Honestly though, I am really surprised at how bad against cav JPK are. I always thought they were significantly better. I mean, they're not terrible, but I think mitoe is on to something with giving them extra 0.5 against cav. That would make them kill huss in one less hit (with 30 damage of overkill).

[dansil92]

Keep in mind you are comparing an elite, 150 res fortress age unit against standard, base stat colonial units

[Zeke]

JPK die in 9 hits from a huss and kill a huss in 8 hits. They die in 11 shots or 22 hits from a musk and kill a musk in 3 hits.
Elite Pumas die in 7 hits from a huss and kill a huss in 5 hits. They die in 8 shots or 17 hits from a musk and kill a musk in 15 hits.

So yes, JPK are worse against hussars, but they still trade cost effectively and do MUCH better against musks than pumas.

Honestly though, I am really surprised at how bad against cav JPK are. I always thought they were significantly better. I mean, they're not terrible, but I think mitoe is on to something with giving them extra 0.5 against cav. That would make them kill huss in one less hit (with 30 damage of overkill).

I'm not sure what age are u talking about, but my point is about the performance of JPK in fortress age since u can only get 3 of them from bb in age 2 (they are fortress unit so they should definitely trade efficiently with age 2 units, and they even didn't trade so great before the buff).
In fortress, vet huss 8 hits JPK and JPK 10 hits vet huss, so it seems like a bad trade for melee HI (in comparison, halb can 7 hits vet huss and being 8 hits by vet huss, while being cheaper than JPK). tbh even age 2 puma are better anti-cav than JPK (puma 6 hits huss tho being 6 hits by huss as well), the only advantage of JPK in age 2 is being tanky a little bit and help defend a push on wh (therefore can directly pop them onto other units).
In the case of fighting musk, JPK did merely fine in stats (4 hits vet musk while being 9 shoots/19 hits by vet musk), however in fortress, vet musk will likely be mixed with skrim and/or falc, which rekt JPK (indeed all melee HI). So I still insist that JPK are only good at fighting melee HI, having good trade with musk in limited situations.

PS. ur calculation of age 2 musk with JPK seems to forget counting the melee resist of musk, the correct one should be: JPK 4 hits musk and being 11 shoots / 22 hits by musk (musk having more melee resist than melee HI like JPK is just funny xD)

[Garja]

JPK scale insanely well with cards and attack dance. Also 9 musk shots (or skirm shots) take as long as 18 hits. JPK destroy musks and do fine vs skirms once in meele due to the high base attack and high HP.
It's just that it's a meelee infantry unit with rather bad speed. Still they're faster than skirms and if WC snares units in front they're pretty good.

[dansil92]

So removing the heavy infantry tag and anticav multi could make them useable

[Zeke]

CIR being too strong to melee HI :(

[dansil92]

Jpk do absolutely murder other melee infantry, which is what they excel at. In fact it is the only thing i would call them good at. They block melee infantry from getting to erks (which certain melee infantry are dangerously good against), but its not like aztec struggles against musks (mace) or cav (erks), so the unit is just doomed to be 150 wasted res

An interesting thing to note is on the original release of TWC, jpk had 3x vs cav and 2x against heavy infantry

[wardyb1]

JPK just seem to be expensive. Hard to fit into comps because they are such an investment to get decent numbers of them, stealth them, get them into position then get a good fight. Maybe a 10 or 20 food cost reduction would be enough to see them get a bit more play.

[Squamiger]

it seems like the main weakness of aztec is against skirm heavy compositions, correct? so idk if JPK are really the unit to focus on for buffing or changing. More like, coyotes need a buff?

[vividlyplain]

it seems like the main weakness of aztec is against skirm heavy compositions, correct? so idk if JPK are really the unit to focus on for buffing or changing. More like, coyotes need a buff?

that was last month's flavour

[Darwin_]

What about removing their melee armour and increasing their HP a bit more, maybe to 260, which would mean they die in one more skirm shot but would leave them effectively the same in melee combat (they usually have 10% melee armor, so 264 melee HP)?

[[Armag] diarouga]

it seems like the main weakness of aztec is against skirm heavy compositions, correct? so idk if JPK are really the unit to focus on for buffing or changing. More like, coyotes need a buff?

More like coyotes need a buff.

[duckzilla]

it seems like the main weakness of aztec is against skirm heavy compositions, correct? so idk if JPK are really the unit to focus on for buffing or changing. More like, coyotes need a buff?

Guess coyote being a crap unit is designed to make up for other aztec strengths.

I mean... No one would design a slow cav unit with not even half the stats of a hussar if he wanted it to be a strong unit.

85f/25w
150hp
.1 RR
18dmg

The only thing this unit has got going for it is less pathing issues. Otherwise it is just shit. If could have been nice if there was an age III card which changes its cost into 85f or 100f to make it somewhat cheaper (comparable to Magyar Huszar in AoE2).

[Garja]

So removing the heavy infantry tag and anticav multi could make them useable

Realistically would make them too good. The only counters would be cav and artillery which in return as easy to counter for Aztecs.

[dansil92]

So removing the heavy infantry tag and anticav multi could make them useable

Realistically would make them too good. The only counters would be cav and artillery which in return as easy to counter for Aztecs.

gestures at skirmishers

[Garja]

Ye but they're ranged with bad dps and low hp. As someone pointed out, take urumi for example, they're extremely hard to counter.

[Superfly47]

it seems like the main weakness of aztec is against skirm heavy compositions, correct? so idk if JPK are really the unit to focus on for buffing or changing. More like, coyotes need a buff?

Maybe in age 3 Mace can gets a boost vs HI. Could be researched from a house instead of Euro using arsenal.