Germans Discussion Thread

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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I give players a little more credit than that, though I also always disagreed with the full uhlan + 7+8 skirm playstyles. It was good enough though because uhlans are/were a great unit.

I mean, I don't even understand how it was ever possible to lose against just 15 skirms and full uhlans. You can literally full goons against that, or goon + cav. This just shows how wrong people must have been playing against that, if they managed to lose lol.

The issue is that Germany could go for a skirm mass in fortress wars+some uhlans and uhlans from shipments, and other civs would have to match the skirm count (else you get rekt) and thus wouldn't be able to make a lot of goons and just just die to the uhlan mass.

Goodspeed wrote:If it's so easy to make hand cav and autowin, why don't other civs do it?

Well obviously, germany masses more hand cav, since they have the free uhlans. Which brings us back to the initial problem: germany gets too many uhlans on the field.
Uhlans are also less forgiving, because of their high attack. If you mismicro, you get torn apart by uhlans. But if you hit and run well, uhlans will do a poor job against ranged units, since they have low hp.
Ah and btw, I'm a player who usually makes a lot of hand cav, with most civs. It works a lot, because most people don't hit and run like crazy. Honestly, just bring a mass of huss against the standard skirm/goon player, you will probably just overwhelm him. Doesn't have to be uhlans.

Yes but it is still an issue if you have to put a lot of effort to beat a guy who just goes attack move.
Anyway, that's not the point, Germany was just too strong, and even with good hit and run skills, civs like France would lose to the Ger mass. Also you can't hit and run that easily. Sure if you have 100% goons vs full uhlans+15 skirms you can do that and win but if you see full goon as Ger, you're going to add skirms and win.
And when you're playing with a skirm/goon/2falcs composition, it's actually bad to hit and run because you'll lose the falcs and the skirms for just a few uhlan so RE uhlans are definitely an issue.


Goodspeed wrote:High attack low hp has significant advantages. The most obvious is that overkill is a big issue against such units.

And such units overkill other units themselves, because of their own high attack.
It's anyway again all about micro. If you can split your goons uhlans are really not so scary. Of course if you overkill like crazy you'll lose.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

Lol dont make skirms vs Ger.
Just go 50/50 goon/huss and attack move yourself while flanking in the back with 5 huss.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Kaiserklein wrote:That's where there's a confusion, as always. RE uhlans don't overperform overall. They overperform in some situations (raiding, fighting melee units, sieging) and underperform in some others (snaring high attack units, tanking, catching a bunch of ranged units if the guy hits and run).

Nerf uhlan attack to 35 and revert hp to 190, so that:
They overperform in some situations (raiding, fighting melee units, sieging)

-Same number of hits vs normal vills, 1 more hit vs cdb;
-1 more hit to kill hussars and generally weaker vs melee units;
-Sieging could be nerfed as well but i don't think it should be done tbf;
underperform in some others (snaring high attack units, tanking, catching a bunch of ranged units if the guy hits and run)

-Reverting hp helps in all of these situations.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

@Garja If you guys concluded that uhlans overperform overall because they are fine at range (???), then I understand better why we got that kind of shitty change.

@[Armag] diarouga If you go for a skirm war against germany, you definitely deserve to lose. What are your skirms even for, lol...
And if you need to make extra micro efforts against anyone z moving hand cav or heavy infantry, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced. Some units (goons, skirms...) are just designed to require more micro than some others (huss, musks...).
I never said germany wasn't too strong, just said that uhlans themselves were not OP. The mass was OP.
And my point was that 15 skirms + full uhlans is just a bad composition. Full goon was an example, huss goon works too. Actually, any decent composition without too many skirms should beat full uhlans + 15 skirms. But of course, half the players randomly mass 30 skirms against germany, I guess "because it's the meta", and then get z moved and cry.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Going for the skirm war vs german EleGiggle, i guess you can full skirm vs german now
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:@Garja If you guys concluded that uhlans overperform overall because they are fine at range (???), then I understand better why we got that kind of shitty change.

@[Armag] diarouga If you go for a skirm war against germany, you definitely deserve to lose. What are your skirms even for, lol...

And if you need to make extra micro efforts against anyone z moving hand cav or heavy infantry, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced. Some units (goons, skirms...) are just designed to require more micro than some others (huss, musks...).
I never said germany wasn't too strong, just said that uhlans themselves were not OP. The mass was OP.
And my point was that 15 skirms + full uhlans is just a bad composition. Full goon was an example, huss goon works too. Actually, any decent composition without too many skirms should beat full uhlans + 15 skirms. But of course, half the players randomly mass 30 skirms against germany, I guess "because it's the meta", and then get z moved and cry.

So what are you going to do lol? Huss/goon and get rekt when the ger player gets the 9brs?
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Ulhans do just fine at range, whoever says otherwise doesn't understand the game or just lies. When you get way more ulhans than other cav and you take into account 30% rr and overkill they do just fine for their cost. And if they get a good surround they just annhilate everything. It's the same exact dynamic of hackapells.

Ranged cav + meelee cav (+ eventually some skirms) is ideally what your combo should be vs Germans because ulhans are always going to be a part of their army no matter what. The problem with full cav is that it's less cost efficient than skirm/cav. This means you will have less mass and since they have short range you can't poke nor oppose vs other skirms. You have to commit to the battle. And before you get the critical mass to do that, the Germans player will be pocking at your vills with more skirms and enough ulhans+anticav to be safe against full cav. Basically you need double stable but it takes too long.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:@Garja If you guys concluded that uhlans overperform overall because they are fine at range (???), then I understand better why we got that kind of shitty change.

@[Armag] diarouga If you go for a skirm war against germany, you definitely deserve to lose. What are your skirms even for, lol...

And if you need to make extra micro efforts against anyone z moving hand cav or heavy infantry, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced. Some units (goons, skirms...) are just designed to require more micro than some others (huss, musks...).
I never said germany wasn't too strong, just said that uhlans themselves were not OP. The mass was OP.
And my point was that 15 skirms + full uhlans is just a bad composition. Full goon was an example, huss goon works too. Actually, any decent composition without too many skirms should beat full uhlans + 15 skirms. But of course, half the players randomly mass 30 skirms against germany, I guess "because it's the meta", and then get z moved and cry.

So what are you going to do lol? Huss/goon and get rekt when the ger player gets the 9brs?

You're right, going for a skirm war and then losing to 30 uhlans z move is way better than going huss goon...
Goon + cuir/huss + 2 falcs is a very legit composition against age 3 ger. You just don't want to make skirms against germany until you see they were forced to make wws or ship the br. There's simply no reason to make skirms against a civ that gets a ton of cav and has shitty anti cav. It's just basic unit compositions logic. Then depending on how much ranged cav they get, you adjust your skirm mass. If it's only 9 br or a few wws, you probably won't need more than 15-20 skirms anyway. Both brs and wws don't tank at range anyway.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:Ulhans do just fine at range, whoever says otherwise doesn't understand the game or just lies. When you get way more ulhans than other cav and you take into account 30% and rr they do just fine for their cost. And if they get a good surround they just annilhate everything. It's the same exact dynamic of hackapells except hackapells.

Yes because you have too many uhlans... The mass is too strong, not the unit itself isn't. And 30% rr on shit hp is still shit.

Garja wrote:Ranged cav + meelee cav (+ eventually some skirms) is ideally what your combo should be vs Germans because ulhans are always going to be a part of their army no matter what. The problem with full cav is that it's less cost efficient than skirm/cav. This means you will have less mass and since they have short range you can't poke nor oppose vs other skirms. You have to commit to the battle. And before you get the critical mass to do that, the Germans player will be pocking at your vills with more skirms and enough ulhans+anticav to be safe against full cav. Basically you need double stable but it takes too long.

You don't really get less mass from making only cav. Not sure what you mean there. And for the range, you got the 2 falconets. Ger can't pressure your base if you got 2 falcs sitting under tc and protected by cav goon.
Cav combat becomes an insane card when you go almost full cav btw.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

It's hard to define what's too much when a 150 res cav is naturally meant to be more spammable than a 200 one. And RR is related to the opponent unit damage so it's not shit on low HP. For example it gets more valuable after goons get upgraded. HP don't do that. And btw the same logic applies to sowars and other 30% RR units.

As for full cav you obviously get less mass. Not just less mass (that would be obvious and doesn't imply much) but less effective mass. That's due to the fact that you need to commit to the battle and can't poke and kite. Besides by going heavy huss you need to spend 400 res on up that you wouldn't otherwise. If you chose cuirs instead they just train to slow to match Germans for a big window of time. And you can't camp forever in base, on top of the fact that if your mass is small falcs won't be safe even in base.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

IF only ger got sowars or stepp riders then they’d be more playable again
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Seriously though, you have such a mobility advantage against german that most people dont abuse.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

@Garja Falcs should probably come in 2nd card. If you have some huss left from colo, and just ship 5 goons and make 5, its already quite a decent mass to cover falcs tbh. Training cuirs is slow but so is training wws or shipping BR, and without one of these france will have trouble to push france having goon + some cav. Let's also not forget that skirms need to cross the whole map, which delays the push by 40s or so, giving more time to french to mass.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Ye French will probably have barely enough to discourage any attempt at killing falcs under TC. But then what? You're on the backfoot the whole time. If you're already in catch up mode after colonial you can't afford to sit in base until you reach a good combo balance to push out. Germans will get map, kill TP, balance the combo themselves and ship cav combat too. When finally French feels safe to push out Ger combo will be 2/3 cav so there is no inherent advantage anymore to go full cav. And because full cav early on slow down your unit production it is likely that Fre will have less stuff when the big battle happens.

I agree full cav is nice vs Germans but it is only realistically working if the other civ can somehow contest the cav war in colo. And that usually doesn't happen vs Germans.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

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Post by Kaiserklein »

I guess we should play that mu soon on RE with ep maps and see how it goes
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:@Garja If you guys concluded that uhlans overperform overall because they are fine at range (???), then I understand better why we got that kind of shitty change.

@[Armag] diarouga If you go for a skirm war against germany, you definitely deserve to lose. What are your skirms even for, lol...

And if you need to make extra micro efforts against anyone z moving hand cav or heavy infantry, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced. Some units (goons, skirms...) are just designed to require more micro than some others (huss, musks...).
I never said germany wasn't too strong, just said that uhlans themselves were not OP. The mass was OP.
And my point was that 15 skirms + full uhlans is just a bad composition. Full goon was an example, huss goon works too. Actually, any decent composition without too many skirms should beat full uhlans + 15 skirms. But of course, half the players randomly mass 30 skirms against germany, I guess "because it's the meta", and then get z moved and cry.

So what are you going to do lol? Huss/goon and get rekt when the ger player gets the 9brs?

You're right, going for a skirm war and then losing to 30 uhlans z move is way better than going huss goon...
Goon + cuir/huss + 2 falcs is a very legit composition against age 3 ger. You just don't want to make skirms against germany until you see they were forced to make wws or ship the br. There's simply no reason to make skirms against a civ that gets a ton of cav and has shitty anti cav. It's just basic unit compositions logic. Then depending on how much ranged cav they get, you adjust your skirm mass. If it's only 9 br or a few wws, you probably won't need more than 15-20 skirms anyway. Both brs and wws don't tank at range anyway.

The cav war is hopeless vs Germany and since in cav wars you have to engage you'll just die.
With skirm/goon, even though you should lose to a good ger you can always poke and hope he overcommits , kill his army and win.

In bad MUs it's going to be hard no matter what you do so you should pick the build which has the most outplay potential.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Nerf uhlan atk
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

I like nerfing uhlan RR instead of HP (or maybe both).
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

I thought of RR already and it's not what we want in the end. RR nerfs ulhans more in mid-late game (so mostly in team games) while it makes no difference in cav wars in colonial (mostly in 1v1).
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:The cav war is hopeless vs Germany and since in cav wars you have to engage you'll just die.
With skirm/goon, even though you should lose to a good ger you can always poke and hope he overcommits , kill his army and win.

How is it hopeless to go for a cav war against germany if you have goons and they don't??
Skirm goon just loses badly to skirm uhlans... That's like the worst thing to do against germany lol. You need stuff to block the uhlans, and then once blocked they melt to goons. Without any meatshield you'll just get caught. That's why you usually need hand cav against germany.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

just full skirm on ep, no one wants to make xp donators in fortress anyway
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:The cav war is hopeless vs Germany and since in cav wars you have to engage you'll just die.
With skirm/goon, even though you should lose to a good ger you can always poke and hope he overcommits , kill his army and win.

How is it hopeless to go for a cav war against germany if you have goons and they don't??
Skirm goon just loses badly to skirm uhlans... That's like the worst thing to do against germany lol. You need stuff to block the uhlans, and then once blocked they melt to goons. Without any meatshield you'll just get caught. That's why you usually need hand cav against germany.

You need some hand cav to block that's true but if you don't make a skirms mass you're going to lose badly.
They actually have goons: the 9 black riders, and if you go huss/goon your huss will get rekt by uhlans/brs while your goons will die to the ger skirms.
Honestly, skirm/goon just doesn't work vs RE Germany.

Anyway, you can always take a good position (maybe even wall), and kill a uhlan mass with skirm/goons.
If you only have huss/goons you're going to die to brs/uhlans/skirms
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Garja wrote:I thought of RR already and it's not what we want in the end. RR nerfs ulhans more in mid-late game (so mostly in team games) while it makes no difference in cav wars in colonial (mostly in 1v1).

185 hp doesn't change colonial cav wars either.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

It does. Besides the nerf now it's to 180hp.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Good point
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