Germans Discussion Thread

[Kaiserklein]

The cav war is hopeless vs Germany and since in cav wars you have to engage you'll just die.
With skirm/goon, even though you should lose to a good ger you can always poke and hope he overcommits , kill his army and win.

How is it hopeless to go for a cav war against germany if you have goons and they don't??
Skirm goon just loses badly to skirm uhlans... That's like the worst thing to do against germany lol. You need stuff to block the uhlans, and then once blocked they melt to goons. Without any meatshield you'll just get caught. That's why you usually need hand cav against germany.

You need some hand cav to block that's true but if you don't make a skirms mass you're going to lose badly.
They actually have goons: the 9 black riders, and if you go huss/goon your huss will get rekt by uhlans/brs while your goons will die to the ger skirms.
Honestly, skirm/goon just doesn't work vs RE Germany.

The 9 BR take 60s instead of the regular 40s to come on the field, and during all that time you're idling 1000g. It's not like you can do that in every situation, it's actually quite a big risk to take.
Btw, BRs lose to goons. They don't have a range resist, they're actually not that strong of a unit. They're just cool for ger because they're goons, but they're not OP. I'd rather have regular goons, especially since you can send cav combat at some point, than BR. Br even have 2.5 multiplier vs cav instead of 3 btw.
If you have like 10-15 skirms yourself, it should be enough to snipe the BR down, and because you have way more goons than the ger 9 BR anyway, you will still win the cav fight. The uhlans will melt before your huss, because you have more goons and huss tank more than uhlans, and then you're left with hand cav while germany lost all his uhlans, and you're just fine. True, he's gonna snipe your goons faster since he has more skirms, but he will lose the cav war regardless. And germany still needs to somehow deal with the 2 falcs in the back.
Yeah I agree skirm goon doesn't work vs RE germany, and that's just fine since cav + RI > goon + RI, that's basic counter system logic. If you can go skirm/goon and beat skirm/cav, it means the counter system is broken, and skirm/goon is unbeatable. Sounds really boring

[[Armag] diarouga]

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The cav war is hopeless vs Germany and since in cav wars you have to engage you'll just die.
With skirm/goon, even though you should lose to a good ger you can always poke and hope he overcommits , kill his army and win.

How is it hopeless to go for a cav war against germany if you have goons and they don't??
Skirm goon just loses badly to skirm uhlans... That's like the worst thing to do against germany lol. You need stuff to block the uhlans, and then once blocked they melt to goons. Without any meatshield you'll just get caught. That's why you usually need hand cav against germany.

You need some hand cav to block that's true but if you don't make a skirms mass you're going to lose badly.
They actually have goons: the 9 black riders, and if you go huss/goon your huss will get rekt by uhlans/brs while your goons will die to the ger skirms.
Honestly, skirm/goon just doesn't work vs RE Germany.

The 9 BR take 60s instead of the regular 40s to come on the field, and during all that time you're idling 1000g. It's not like you can do that in every situation, it's actually quite a big risk to take.

Yea but at some point you can send them (like 2nd-3rd fortress shipment, it's not an issue)

Btw, BRs lose to goons. They don't have a range resist, they're actually not that strong of a unit.

Yes but BRs are not going to fight goons anyway.

They're just cool for ger because they're goons, but they're not OP. I'd rather have regular goons, especially since you can send cav combat at some point, than BR.

I agree than in late fortress you can just beat Germany with skirm/goon/huss if you have the same army, but that's not going to happen, my point is that you're going to die before that.

Br even have 2.5 multiplier vs cav instead of 3 btw.
If you have like 10-15 skirms yourself, it should be enough to snipe the BR down

This shows you don't get my point. You can't have 10-15 skirms because the Ger player will have 20-25 which means that if you only make a few skirms, you'll keep losing them. In the end, you either have to go full skirm/goon with a few huss to tank, or just huss/goon, because if you go huss/goon with a few skirms you will have to engage the Ger player but since he's playing Germany he will have more stuff.

, and because you have way more goons than the ger 9 BR anyway, you will still win the cav fight.

Or again, the Ger player will poke you and kill some goons and you either have to lose all your goons or engage but you can't engage because he has more units.

The uhlans will melt before your huss, because you have more goons and huss tank more than uhlans, and then you're left with hand cav while germany lost all his uhlans, and you're just fine.

A realistic situation would be 25 skirms/9brs/30 vet uhlans vs 30 goons/15 huss (because Germany just gets more units than any other age 3 civ), and sure at some point the uhlans will die, but by that time you the ger player will still have 25 skirms/9brs and you'll have 15 goons so you'll lose.

True, he's gonna snipe your goons faster since he has more skirms, but he will lose the cav war regardless. And germany still needs to somehow deal with the 2 falcs in the back.

Yes the falcs are the only hope. Still, you're not going to protect them from the BRs unless you make a decent amount of skirms, which is what I suggest.

Yeah I agree skirm goon doesn't work vs RE germany, and that's just fine since cav + RI > goon + RI, that's basic counter system logic. If you can go skirm/goon and beat skirm/cav, it means the counter system is broken, and skirm/goon is unbeatable. Sounds really boring
Skirm/goon doesn't beat skirm/cav unless you take a great fight (like in the middle of trees/walls), but skirm/huss doesn't work because you're outmassed early on and you keep losing units to the Ger poking. The issue isn't the unit composition, you can counter skirm/uhlan+9brs, the issue is the crazy amount of uhlans Germany can get.

[gamevideo113]

Feels good to be ignored

[Hazza54321]

Feels good to be ignored

uhlan att being high is their feature, if we nerf it and keep 190 hp theyre basically another axe rider

[gamevideo113]

Abus high attack was their feature as well, yet it was nerfed. I don't think that is a valid argument against this change.
Besides, axe riders have less RR and low multiplier vs ranged cav so they would still be different. The only thing they'd have in common would be having 35 attack, in the same way as wakina has the same atk as forest prowlers.

[lordraphael]

Abus high attack was their feature as well, yet it was nerfed. I don't think that is a valid argument against this change.
Besides, axe riders have less RR and low multiplier vs ranged cav so they would still be different. The only thing they'd have in common would be having 35 attack, in the same way as wakina has the same atk as forest prowlers.

it actually wasnt nerfed, this was one of the keyarguments why abos rof was nerfed instead of their dmg and its actually true. ROF nerf retained the untis unique status while dmg nerf would standardize the unit to a certain degree. Still doesnt mean we picked the right nerf.

[gamevideo113]

I actually wanted to write dps instead of attack, but my brain farted. gg
Still, i don’t think that should be a reason not to consider changing their attack.

[TNT333]

I want more war wagons cards

[yemshi]

Besides the three good upgrades and arguably a fourth one?

[pecelot]

gib 20 range and range resist

[deleted_user0]

Please nerf them already.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well, we can't make balance change during a big tournament but I agree that Germany should be nerfed in the next patch. The civ has been top 3 for all the EP era.

[Hazza54321]

want them nerfed but also 190hp back

[deleted_user]

People still complaining about Ger lol

Not sure they can be nerfed anymore without making the civ no fun at all

[aligator92]

no idea if someone has proposed that before but make german houses 110w?

[princeofkabul]

Hey, for some reason I found motivation to type in for balance threads now.
I'm proposing german tweaks for having solid army by stats but less units in general.
Uhlan hp 190 and same buffed ep dops as now. For reducing the sheer amount what you can mass with them would be basically tweak the amount of free uhlans per ages or removing them entirely from a shipment (3sw)
Would it be too much of a change if crates and 3sw would be changed to have 1 free uhlan in age 2 and 1k crates to 2 uhlan in age 3? It's probably ugly change design wise but to be honest design for many civs have already been butchered so I don't understand why german wouldn't for the greater good. With these changes we would have solid cavalry back for germans and also a buffed infantry melee unit in a game dominated by ranged units. I'd like to hear some thoughts of others who play germans in higher level.

[Hazza54321]

would make them more enjoyable for a start

[Riotcoke]

Hey, for some reason I found motivation to type in for balance threads now.
I'm proposing german tweaks for having solid army by stats but less units in general.
Uhlan hp 190 and same buffed ep dops as now. For reducing the sheer amount what you can mass with them would be basically tweak the amount of free uhlans per ages or removing them entirely from a shipment (3sw)
Would it be too much of a change if crates and 3sw would be changed to have 1 free uhlan in age 2 and 1k crates to 2 uhlan in age 3? It's probably ugly change design wise but to be honest design for many civs have already been butchered so I don't understand why german wouldn't for the greater good. With these changes we would have solid cavalry back for germans and also a buffed infantry melee unit in a game dominated by ranged units. I'd like to hear some thoughts of others who play germans in higher level.

Or just make it so German shipments cost even more than they currently do.

[princeofkabul]

Hey, for some reason I found motivation to type in for balance threads now.
I'm proposing german tweaks for having solid army by stats but less units in general.
Uhlan hp 190 and same buffed ep dops as now. For reducing the sheer amount what you can mass with them would be basically tweak the amount of free uhlans per ages or removing them entirely from a shipment (3sw)
Would it be too much of a change if crates and 3sw would be changed to have 1 free uhlan in age 2 and 1k crates to 2 uhlan in age 3? It's probably ugly change design wise but to be honest design for many civs have already been butchered so I don't understand why german wouldn't for the greater good. With these changes we would have solid cavalry back for germans and also a buffed infantry melee unit in a game dominated by ranged units. I'd like to hear some thoughts of others who play germans in higher level.

Or just make it so German shipments cost even more than they currently do.

Would make them unplayable in non tp maps.

[dansil92]

Or could just remove the fast age option entirely for germany which would be a welcome nerf. Its stupid they can play pure eco, have 10-15 uhlans and then jump to fortress completely unchallenged.

[deleted_user0]

3 SW shipment like Polish Hussar? Instead of free uhlans you gain "extra SW". So 3 SW shipment --> 2 SWs but free uhlans make it 3 again.
Beautiful.

I think that alone and reverting uhlan hp would be enough. Because that card is part of every single german build. 6 vill shipment alone is so op, and then free uhlans added to that...

[deleted_user]

Or could just remove the fast age option entirely for germany which would be a welcome nerf. Its stupid they can play pure eco, have 10-15 uhlans and then jump to fortress completely unchallenged.

That's why we made uhlans bad.

[deleted_user]

I'm not sure how Ger can be toned down without just changing the civ at its elementary level. That's never been EP's mantra except for Sioux.

[Kaiserklein]

Hey, for some reason I found motivation to type in for balance threads now.
I'm proposing german tweaks for having solid army by stats but less units in general.
Uhlan hp 190 and same buffed ep dops as now. For reducing the sheer amount what you can mass with them would be basically tweak the amount of free uhlans per ages or removing them entirely from a shipment (3sw)
Would it be too much of a change if crates and 3sw would be changed to have 1 free uhlan in age 2 and 1k crates to 2 uhlan in age 3? It's probably ugly change design wise but to be honest design for many civs have already been butchered so I don't understand why german wouldn't for the greater good. With these changes we would have solid cavalry back for germans and also a buffed infantry melee unit in a game dominated by ranged units. I'd like to hear some thoughts of others who play germans in higher level.

Yeah this is close to what I suggested somewhere in this thread. Reverting uhlan hp but removing 1 uhlan from key shipments (3sw/700w/700g + 1 uhlan, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans etc).

[Garja]

2sw+1v+2ulhans. 6skirms+3ulhans, 7ulhans, 12 jaegers. 20% merc combat. , revert dopp hp, increase xbow attack
or
3sw, all age3 shipments give 2 ulhans only, 12 jaegers, 20% merc combat, revert ulhan and dopp hp
or
a combination of the two