Germans Discussion Thread

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Canada Mitoe
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

If anything changing the shipments to 7 skirm + 3 uhlan and 6 skirm + 3 uhlan would be much less ugly than altering the number of uhlans they get for certain shipments.

I would still rather try something like 181 - 185hp and 55f 100c cost.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Whaaat? Uhlans are already quite bad. Nobody even trains them (esp. after colonial), cause u get enough for free anyway and they suck. The fact that makes Germans so op is that its a quite standard nilla civ...

Except they have 4v card discoryvery and 6v shipment colonial ( plus free 300 res) and their shipments have 50% more value than other civ. That's why they mass so fucking much. More than any other civ.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Djigit »

@Kaiserklein
Dude, 6 uhlans is barely better than 5 kanyas lol, if any. It's worth as much as 3 dops + 2 uhlans, a colonial shipment... If you think germany is so op that their fortress shipments should be nerfed to be worth their current colonial shipments, I don't really know what to tell you tbh. Either uninstall the game or go make your own patch like Vane, probably.
I'm indifferent to 8 skirm+3 uhlans or 9 br instead of the regular 7. I'm only referring to the age 3 uhlan shipments because that's where the civ bonus becomes a game-changing asset.
Some civs like Russia have 5 cossacks identical to their colonial shipment, how 6 uhlans is a shipment you can sleep on? I mean poor Dutch have to settle for 4 huss lol

I've realized for a long time some folks here have an agenda to push. I personally gain nothing from having Germans buffed, nerfed or unchanged :)
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Re: German Discussion Thread

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Post by princeofkabul »

Mitoe wrote:If anything changing the shipments to 7 skirm + 3 uhlan and 6 skirm + 3 uhlan would be much less ugly than altering the number of uhlans they get for certain shipments.

I would still rather try something like 181 - 185hp and 55f 100c cost.


I don't understand your logic behind this.
1.Is uhlan good unit now? - no
2.Was it ever the problem as a unit before nerf - no
3.The solution me and kaiser are after, does it directly impact the problem, which was the amount you can mass them? - yes

Why do you keep insisting of tweaking the unit stats or cost when it was never the issue?
the cost tweak wouldn't change the fact how much you get them since most of the comes from shipment anyways. Currently you are mustering big mass of uhlans that are essentially just inflated military pop space in the graphs. Could you explain what do you disagree with my solution, how is it bad. and maybe we can find a solution for this.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by reuehcS »

My suggestion is:

1) Reduce free Uhlan to
age 2 = 1 Uhlan
age 3 = 2 Uhlan
age 4 = 3 Uhlan

2) Uhlan with 190 hit points

3) Doppelsoldner hit increase to 275

I believe that with these changes would make German shipments less OP, and give more strength at age 2, because the Doppelsolders could fight Musketeers without being completely massacred.

Below is a link from a test I made, without doing any kind of micro-management. If I micromanaged the musketeers then they would gain by much difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gwB5p4_8M4&feature=youtu.be
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

princeofkabul wrote:2.Was it ever the problem as a unit before nerf - no
Debatable, and I would argue yes they were. German armies were commonly 80%+ uhlan before the nerf. And that's not just because of the free ones you got; German players often trained only uhlans. Now, German armies are much more diverse.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

80% uhlan armies is aload of shit, perhaps if you played the game
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

before the nerf

And in case you skipped over the word "commonly" as well, I didn't say "every game".
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

i know what u meant
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Then what possible reason do you have for bringing up me not playing the game? I was playing it before the nerf.
Point is the unit was overused. It can easily be argued that it was a problem.
Btw have you tried writing more than one sentence per post yet? Or is that still beyond you?
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

perhaps because you seem to come up with ridiculous changes
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

princeofkabul wrote:I don't understand your logic behind this.
1.Is uhlan good unit now? - no

They're totally acceptable in 1v1 right now.
2.Was it ever the problem as a unit before nerf - no

This is debatable, but I would argue yes. How difficult was it to punish the 3 SW 700w 700c semi? Very very difficult. This was almost entirely because Uhlans were such a dominant early game unit. Let's not forget that most unit compositions before the nerf were 100% skirm/uhlan with almost no WW, or if there were any WW it was always the 3 from the shipment or the 9 BR and nothing else.
3.The solution me and kaiser are after, does it directly impact the problem, which was the amount you can mass them? - yes

I'm not disagreeing that it directly impacts a problem, but for me it feels like it takes away Germany's identity. I definitely won't play them after such a change--they'll just be less fun. Not to mention just how bad it feels design-wise.

Why do you keep insisting of tweaking the unit stats or cost when it was never the issue?
the cost tweak wouldn't change the fact how much you get them since most of the comes from shipment anyways. Currently you are mustering big mass of uhlans that are essentially just inflated military pop space in the graphs. Could you explain what do you disagree with my solution, how is it bad. and maybe we can find a solution for this.

The majority of your uhlans do not come from shipments unless you're going for a composition where you're not training uhlans. If the majority ARE coming from shipments it's because you're sending low value cards like 9 and 8 uhlans. The cost / stat change just changes Germany from having consistently good units for their cost with a really solid economy + insane shipments, to keeping their eco/shipments and having a lower value per cost army than most other civs. That's how that would end up being balanced.

As I've already said, I just really dislike the horrible inconsistency with their shipments after your change. Just feels so random to sometimes get 2 uhlans sometimes 3, sometimes 1, etc. Just doesn't feel like Germany, doesn't feel fun, and honestly we should just explore other options first. Besides, why would you remove uhlans from the shipments instead of other units? That just makes much more sense design-wise.


Personally I'm not even convinced that Germany is as OP as everyone makes them out to be right now. Good? Of course. But the best civ? I doubt it.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by flontier »

Wasnt the ulhan overused because ww suck so much as anti cav ? now that both units do bad against other cav yes the composition is a bit more diverse..
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Hazza54321 wrote:perhaps because you seem to come up with ridiculous changes
It might've been because people weren't ready for real change. But no, I don't think so. At one point, you just get tired of the game. You'll see, no one is immune to this.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by princeofkabul »

Mitoe wrote:
princeofkabul wrote:I don't understand your logic behind this.
1.Is uhlan good unit now? - no

They're totally acceptable in 1v1 right now.
2.Was it ever the problem as a unit before nerf - no

This is debatable, but I would argue yes. How difficult was it to punish the 3 SW 700w 700c semi? Very very difficult. This was almost entirely because Uhlans were such a dominant early game unit. Let's not forget that most unit compositions before the nerf were 100% skirm/uhlan with almost no WW, or if there were any WW it was always the 3 from the shipment or the 9 BR and nothing else.
3.The solution me and kaiser are after, does it directly impact the problem, which was the amount you can mass them? - yes

I'm not disagreeing that it directly impacts a problem, but for me it feels like it takes away Germany's identity. I definitely won't play them after such a change--they'll just be less fun. Not to mention just how bad it feels design-wise.

Why do you keep insisting of tweaking the unit stats or cost when it was never the issue?
the cost tweak wouldn't change the fact how much you get them since most of the comes from shipment anyways. Currently you are mustering big mass of uhlans that are essentially just inflated military pop space in the graphs. Could you explain what do you disagree with my solution, how is it bad. and maybe we can find a solution for this.

The majority of your uhlans do not come from shipments unless you're going for a composition where you're not training uhlans. If the majority ARE coming from shipments it's because you're sending low value cards like 9 and 8 uhlans. The cost / stat change just changes Germany from having consistently good units for their cost with a really solid economy + insane shipments, to keeping their eco/shipments and having a lower value per cost army than most other civs. That's how that would end up being balanced.

As I've already said, I just really dislike the horrible inconsistency with their shipments after your change. Just feels so random to sometimes get 2 uhlans sometimes 3, sometimes 1, etc. Just doesn't feel like Germany, doesn't feel fun, and honestly we should just explore other options first. Besides, why would you remove uhlans from the shipments instead of other units? That just makes much more sense design-wise.


Personally I'm not even convinced that Germany is as OP as everyone makes them out to be right now. Good? Of course. But the best civ? I doubt it.


I'm not arguing that germans are OP, for me the uhlan nerf made them less fun to play because they seem to drop like flies. For your solution, I agree that you could change the unit cards and not the free uhlans. I think however it wouldn't be enough to justify the reverse back to 190 hp uhlans (depending how much you would nerf the cards obv) and they would become probably the best civ in tp maps after that. Design wise many civs have already been fucked over, I don't think I even need mention them. I'd rather try to accomplish better balance at this point because we already have went so far from the original patch. For uhlans being dominant in early games, for example in that semi build I agree 100%. My solution would however affect that aswell. Like I originally stated, the free uhlan nerf would impatch only sw shipment and crates. In this case it would be -3 uhlans with that build order, which indeed was quite dominant.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Talking strictly about playability it's not like Germans play too different from when Ulhans had 190hp. Just the combo might be a bit different. Mass ulhan works pretty much the same way as the damage output is the key factor there.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by princeofkabul »

Goodspeed wrote:
princeofkabul wrote:2.Was it ever the problem as a unit before nerf - no
Debatable, and I would argue yes they were. German armies were commonly 80%+ uhlan before the nerf. And that's not just because of the free ones you got; German players often trained only uhlans. Now, German armies are much more diverse.


What is your take on if it would weaken, buff or it doesn't make any diffirence to their balance if ;

RE uhlans
reduce 1 free uhlan from 3sw and crates in colonial and fortress age?
in medium to late fortress game it would probably effect them -5 uhlans.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

As far as i remember 190 hp uhlans were strong because of colo ff mirror. If you played french for example you coulndt mass hussar because you would lose vs uhlans.
You shouldnt really stick to the point: "revert everything to RE". It doesnt matter if its RE or EP change unless its totally bad. And i think people tend to like to keep this change for the reason i wrote.
Just strange noone mentioned it though.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

What really matters on EP stats and for example: you train 10 get 4 rom shipments: Calculator says: 1864 score
RE Stats train 10 get 2 from shipments: 1446 score

I mean its much bigger nerf to remove some than nerf its hp.
Lets say you make 40 uhlans on EP: 15222 score
38 uhlans on RE: 14501

So revert back to RE and make shipments bring few less means "huge" nerf to germany compared to current EP. Uhlans would drop a bit slower...
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by duckzilla »

Dsy wrote:What really matters on EP stats and for example: you train 10 get 4 rom shipments: Calculator says: 1864 score
RE Stats train 10 get 2 from shipments: 1446 score

I mean its much bigger nerf to remove some than nerf its hp.
Lets say you make 40 uhlans on EP: 15222 score
38 uhlans on RE: 14501

So revert back to RE and make shipments bring few less means "huge" nerf to germany compared to current EP. Uhlans would drop a bit slower...

So boost to 200 hp and make all shipments have 1 uhlan less.
Personally, I would to have that.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

Btw in hussar vs uhlan specific scenario on RE stats 12 uhlan gets: 1600 score if i include hussar damage overkill effekt (last hit has 20 hp overdamage) (so calculate as if uhlans would have 210 hp)

Just one little intresting thing about cost effectivity:
RE uhlans: 196
EP uhlans: 185
Hussars: 157

Uhlans only suffer from low HP effect so they drop quick from ranged attacks, however in melee they are very effective units.
And like i mentioned if we including tp notp map differences its something like we would talk about two different civs. Thats why i mention lately to remove these differences first.
My assumption is that -1 uhlan could be balanced on RE stats but only on TP maps. But what about notp maps?
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by edeholland »

How do you calculate the score? Image
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by duckzilla »

Guess he uses this thing: https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=11558
But I was not able to get more information on how precisely things are calculated.

edit: here is a formula: https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... ilit=score
it is: hp*dmg/cost^2

edit2: taking the cost in basic vill seconds (50/.84 + 100/.6 = 226), the result should be:
(190*37/226^2) * 1000 = 137
I don't get it apparently.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

As said multiple times this "score" is essentially irrelevant. I wouldn't trust any result using that formula.

For instance, ep uhlans are more effective in melee according to this formula... Yet huss beat uhlans with equal investment. So it's bullshit.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

They probably are.

Hussars just happen to have 0 overkill vs uhlans so they do great in hus only vs uhlan only fights. But if uhlans had 181hp, they would do great vs hus, iike in RE

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