Germans Discussion Thread

[duckzilla]

As said multiple times this "score" is essentially irrelevant. I wouldn't trust any result using that formula.

For instance, ep uhlans are more effective in melee according to this formula... Yet huss beat uhlans with equal investment. So it's bullshit.

True. I also don't get why the cost is squared. It seems to distort results heavily the higher the cost of a unit becomes and the higher the cost difference between compared units is.

[Kaiserklein]

They probably are.

Hussars just happen to have 0 overkill vs uhlans so they do great in hus only vs uhlan only fights. But if uhlans had 181hp, they would do great vs hus, iike in RE

Yeah and guess what, it's not only vs huss. 180 hp is 1 less melee hit compared to RE vs jans, ruskets, cossacks, coyotes, pumas, kanyas, dops, and so on.
This alone shows this "calculator" makes no sense, since 10 hp (or even 1 hp) can totally change the unit.
And anyway, from my experience, it doesn't feel like uhlans are 20% better than huss in melee...

True. I also don't get why the cost is squared. It seems to distort results heavily the higher the cost of a unit becomes and the higher the cost difference between compared units is.

No idea, it seems to be a totally arbitrary formula to me, I have no idea where it comes from

[deleted_user0]

Uhlans are shit for same reason as hackapels. No doubt about that lol.

That's why the nerf should be towards their absurd mass.

[Garja]

Except hackapells are great

[Kaiserklein]

Well yeah, unlike uhlans, hackapells do rape in melee. But they get sniped even more easily by ranged units.

[Hazza54321]

In some cases you just gotta stick your middle finger to maths or “cost effectiveness” and just go by how it feels ingame

[Jaeger]

They probably are.

Hussars just happen to have 0 overkill vs uhlans so they do great in hus only vs uhlan only fights. But if uhlans had 181hp, they would do great vs hus, iike in RE

Yeah and guess what, it's not only vs huss. 180 hp is 1 less melee hit compared to RE vs jans, ruskets, cossacks, coyotes, pumas, kanyas, dops, and so on.
This alone shows this "calculator" makes no sense, since 10 hp (or even 1 hp) can totally change the unit.
And anyway, from my experience, it doesn't feel like uhlans are 20% better than huss in melee...

True. I also don't get why the cost is squared. It seems to distort results heavily the higher the cost of a unit becomes and the higher the cost difference between compared units is.

No idea, it seems to be a totally arbitrary formula to me, I have no idea where it comes from

Yeah it seems like he just said “Hmm, attack/cost is attack per cost, hp/cost is hp per cost, let me just multiply those together and I get an overall score for the unit”

[Jaeger]

In some cases you just gotta stick your middle finger to maths or “cost effectiveness” and just go by how it feels ingame

Yeah I think it’s way more important to go by the results in game. If the math results are wrong then it’s the fault of people doing the math; they are not modeling the situation accurately enough, which I think is difficult enough to do that you need more than elementary school level addition and multiplication. For example, one thing I have never seen anyone take into account is the pathing of the units the more units you have.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah it seems like he just said “Hmm, attack/cost is attack per cost, hp/cost is hp per cost, let me just multiply those together and I get an overall score for the unit”

Yeah, and since attack/cost and hp/cost ratios are already not reliable at all, multiplying them doesn't make it better.

[Dsy]

Guess he uses this thing: https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=11558
But I was not able to get more information on how precisely things are calculated.

edit: here is a formula: https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... ilit=score
it is: hp*dmg/cost^2

edit2: taking the cost in basic vill seconds (50/.84 + 100/.6 = 226), the result should be:
(190*37/226^2) * 1000 = 137
I don't get it apparently.

190/0.7*37
Since i include armor.

[Dsy]

And if i calculate no armor hussar vs EP uhlans:
Then hussar got 130.96 score uhlan got 130.17

So it shows hussars kinda same strong as uhlans on EP in melee fight. A bit better actually.
Basicly i dont get what you are always talking about "not works", when its always show the results correctly...

[zoom]

Buffing the units and nerfing the shipments , nerfs them on tp and buffs on non tp so i dont see that issue. If you claim it looks “ugly”, then why hasnt that argument been considered when looking at siouxs karni mata teepees, port 85f vills or brit 140w manors

Still, it is pretty dumb, because it requires the rebalancing of another 50 shipments.

Also, there's nothing wrong with love 140w Manors!

[zoom]

What about changing the exiled prince age up time specifically for germany? Slowing it up by 15-20s might be enough to make them more vulnerable to hard rushes. Thus making them want to stay a tad longer in colo where they shine less.

Or could just remove the fast age option entirely for germany which would be a welcome nerf. Its stupid they can play pure eco, have 10-15 uhlans and then jump to fortress completely unchallenged.

I'd rather not make such drastic changes, where there are viable alternatives.

The Exiled Prince is obviously getting nerfed by another five seconds, though, seeing as the current nerf changed nothing. Who would have thought?

no idea if someone has proposed that before but make german houses 110w?

Nobody liked it, years ago. For this reason, as well as an Uhlan nerf being very sensible. I don't consider it an option.

[zoom]

It's pretty much as dumb as nerfing nearly all Spanish unit shipments "because they get so many shipments!". 4 lancers became 3.
That's how they chose to ruin Spain on TAD back in the day

It pretty much isn't, because the Spanish shipments became underpowered, along with the civilization. I wouldn't let that happen, as ES did.

Still, it is pretty dumb, because it requires the rebalancing of another 50 shipments.

[zoom]

[This. These shipments are anti-inf and let's say it, somewhat anti-cav too due to their number. All a German player has to do is basically focus on his skirms batches; the pinnacle of skill...

That looks like a comment from someone who doesn't understand germany at all and talks out of his ass.

Anyone below a certain (high) rank shouldn't be allowed to participate in these threads, anyways. A few years ago, we wanted to introduce a system to distinguish top players from lieutenants, but that idea was shot down at some point. There is a reason I don't post in these threads and it's recognizable from my gameplay.

I read and reflect on every post in this forum, sooner or later. I don't want to discourage or exclude people from participating, based on sheer skill. That would serve neither community nor patch. For the sake of active patch development, however, I do want to establish an additional forum where posting and voting rights are based on invitation – and I intend to.

[Goodspeed]

It's pretty much as dumb as nerfing nearly all Spanish unit shipments "because they get so many shipments!". 4 lancers became 3.
That's how they chose to ruin Spain on TAD back in the day

It pretty much isn't, because the Spanish shipments became underpowered, along with the civilization. I wouldn't let that happen, as ES did.

Still, it is pretty dumb, because it requires the rebalancing of another 50 shipments.

I was commenting on the reasoning being dumb. That is, the nerfing of a civ's shipments because their civ bonus scales on them.

[Hazza54321]

Buffing the units and nerfing the shipments , nerfs them on tp and buffs on non tp so i dont see that issue. If you claim it looks “ugly”, then why hasnt that argument been considered when looking at siouxs karni mata teepees, port 85f vills or brit 140w manors

Still, it is pretty dumb, because it requires the rebalancing of another 50 shipments.

Also, there's nothing wrong with love 140w Manors!

Yeah that wasnt the best example i guess i just personally dislike that change. Admittedly I wouldn’t know how to change brits so idk. Im sure you get the jist of my point.

[Goodspeed]

Tbh 140w manors is a shit change but there was just nothing better

[deleted_user]

140w manors is fine imo, but I've evolved into a 2v2 player.

[Goodspeed]

You're fine

[Kaiserklein]

And if i calculate no armor hussar vs EP uhlans:
Then hussar got 130.96 score uhlan got 130.17

So it shows hussars kinda same strong as uhlans on EP in melee fight. A bit better actually.
Basicly i dont get what you are always talking about "not works", when its always show the results correctly...

"always show the results correctly" according to you lol. In reality it doesn't. Whenever I've seen you use it, the result was bullshit.
You calculated that EP uhlans score 185 and hussars score 157 at range. Lol. EP uhlans are almost 20% better than huss vs ranged units, that's well known :')

Btw you contradict yourself, once you say uhlan are very effective melee units, once you say huss are slightly better at melee.

Uhlans only suffer from low HP effect so they drop quick from ranged attacks, however in melee they are very effective units.

[Dsy]

Yeah i didnt know the EP version of the uhlan so close to the hussars, since i usually used it on RE stats.
But wait i make an other proof if you want on 185 vs 157 thing.

[Kaiserklein]

What do you want to prove? That ep uhlans tank more than huss?

[deleted_user0]

Yeah and guess what, it's not only vs huss. 180 hp is 1 less melee hit compared to RE vs jans, ruskets, cossacks, coyotes, pumas, kanyas, dops, and so on.
This alone shows this "calculator" makes no sense, since 10 hp (or even 1 hp) can totally change the unit.
And anyway, from my experience, it doesn't feel like uhlans are 20% better than huss in melee...

It doesn't work like that. In a realistic situation, dmg is a mix of many different units, ranged dmg, melee dmg, etc so 1hp doesn't really matter much. Just in early cav battles.

He is trying to prove that stat/costwise uhlans and hussar are quite equal.
However, in aoe3 cav is usually targeted first. Therefore hp>>>attack and also hus>>>uhlan. Uhlan great for raiding tho.
Should not really be hard to understand.

[Dsy]

So made a scenario 5 warwagon vs 9 hussars
ANd 5 warwagon vs 11 uhlans