Germans Discussion Thread

[gamevideo113]

Seems reasonable, but i disagree that a shipment nerf would "destroy the civ". There are tons of different options with different implications, most of which aren't that drastic.

[HUMMAN]

What's germans unique side, good shipments with larger shipment costs. I can see shipment cost change is bad, but changing shipment arrival time still makes good shipments avaible but German's op shipment steamroll weaker. A shipment delay like 10s would make SW boom (2 SW 3 SW) gather 100 res less in early colonial, which is not much, a good treausure, but significant. Also at fortress age, where everyone is complaining to increase ff time, Germany would be 10 second late to send her unique age3 shipments.

[Riotcoke]

I thought the problem was that uhlans were like paper now. So decreasing population makes sense seeing as they're about on level with cossacks now.

[Riotcoke]

Increasing the shipment cost also seems to be the easier non-invasive way of nerfing germany,

[gamevideo113]

Would an uhlan cost change really do anything though? I would sooner look at nerfing their HP more. One advantage of that change is that it's tweakable

Decreasing uhlan cost and stats would incentivize training rather than shipping the unit (making germany less tp reliant), and make shipments more balanced as they are less valuable, in particular 9 and 8 uhlans in age 3

[Mitoe]

See that’s the problem. There’s the people that hate the current uhlans because they don’t feel strong like before and then there’s the people who just hate Germany.

Nerfing shipment cost just makes the civ more reliant on TPs which is already a big problem with Germany’s viability on a variety of maps and really don’t think that’s the right way to go.

[Hazza54321]

Nerfing the hp further? What planet are you living on

[gamevideo113]

Nerfing the hp further? What planet are you living on

Yeah tbf i think uhlan hp is already low enough, nerfing their attack instead means nerfing their "defining characteristic" and GS is against it so i don't think we'll ever see it

[Hazza54321]

Nerfed a mediocre unit into a shit unit, now thinking about nerfing a shit unit into an xp donator.

[zoom]

First, even if "3 Settler Wagons" is nerfed, it will remain everyone's favorite part of any Germans game, because it would remain strong enough to be sent in virtually every build.

Second, nerfing the most viable shipment of the entire game seems a sound option, if you also want to nerf its civilization – it were a good thing, were it less viable. Having to choose between a stronger shipment, or Uhlans, helps make for good depth of strategy, instead of non-decisions.

Third, the defining feature of "3 Settler Wagons" is not the 2 Uhlans – it is the 3SW; just as it is the 2SW for the Discovery-Age shipment, and the 3 Jägers with the "10 Jäger shipment". Please note how these many other shipments already don't come with any Uhlans. That's what makes them unique! As far as I'm aware, 3SW is the only shipment that comes with a bonus & Uhlans, to boot. Now that is both overpowered, and inconsistent, poor design.

Fourth, if there is but one thing you shouldn't do, it is nerfing 3SW to 5 Settlers. That would be the most standardizing thing you could possibly do, relative to other civilizations. Removing the Uhlans from this particular shipment isn't removing any civilization bonus; it's removing the extra bonus that no other shipment, of the civilization, has.

During the beta, I intend to poll the option, among players.

[zoom]

The argument against 140w Manors is even less sensible. I can't imagine many players thinking that Manors costing 5w more has ruined the civilization – or its "uniqueness". The Manor remains as defining a feature as ever (5w defining & unique less, I suppose, whatever that means). As long as Manors remain extremely viable, that argument is clutching at straws, arguing in the extreme when the case is anything but, to maintain some meaninglessly absolute principle, only to turn it harmful, in the process. Principles can be great, when they are meaningful.

Another reason 140 Manors is good, is that it eliminates another decimal cost from the game. Now those are ugly, in practice & principle!

[zoom]

It’s not that we’re out of ideas, only that there are two main ways to change Germany: either nerf the shipments or else nerf the units in order to justify the value of those shipments.

Personally I think nerfing the shipments will destroy the civ and make it very bland and boring to play.

The uhlan nerf brought Germany very close to balanced, IMO. A simple cost tweak would be enough to put Germany in a good spot, I think, but much of the resistance to this change and advocation for an alternative seems to be coming from players who either hate the fact that they have to be careful which fights they take with their uhlans now or people who just hate Germany as a civ and would prefer it to be gutted as much as possible.

Tweaking number of Uhlans with shipments isn't happening. Removing 2 Uhlans from 3SW might.

[zoom]

Would an uhlan cost change really do anything though? I would sooner look at nerfing their HP more. One advantage of that change is that it's tweakable

Absolutely. It would disincentivize training the unit, improving viability of options, and thus variety, and cause a bigger impact on your economy if you choose to train it.

Also, I hope you're being sarcastic, because that is frightening. A cost nerf is definitely more tweakable than an HP one.

[zoom]

I can’t really say for certain that it would, but I feel that it’s potential impact is vastly underestimated, or perhaps it’s that the civs strength is slightly overstated right now. Even 5f more is enough to miss a batch or delay the Fortress age up by several seconds after making 10-15 uhlans in age 2.

A cost nerf would be 10-20f.

[zoom]

Nerfed a mediocre unit into a shit unit, now thinking about nerfing a shit unit into an xp donator.

DW, that also isn't happening, unless I'm replaced. It would be balance and PR suicide.

[Riotcoke]

What about nerfing their melee resistance rather than their hp?

[Djigit]

I'd nerf the Age3 9 & 8 uhlan shipments and keep RE uhlan stats.
Also, if xp is a problem then reduce the xp penalty => Tadaa, Germans are better on non-tp maps now.

People really cry when it comes to Germans (top RE & EP civ), while I'd like to remind that French - the most average civ back in the day - has goons, starting crates and scout nerfed.

[Riotcoke]

I'd nerf the Age3 uhlan shipments and keep RE uhlan stats.
Also, if xp is a problem then reduce the xp penalty => Tadaa, Germans are better on non-tp maps now.

People really cry when it comes to Germans (top RE & EP civ), while I'd like to remind that French - the most average civ back in the day - has goons, starting crates and scout nerfed.

Scout nerf is good though, the scout having a snare is complete bs.

[Mitoe]

I can’t really say for certain that it would, but I feel that it’s potential impact is vastly underestimated, or perhaps it’s that the civs strength is slightly overstated right now. Even 5f more is enough to miss a batch or delay the Fortress age up by several seconds after making 10-15 uhlans in age 2.

A cost nerf would be 10-20f.

I feel I should remind you that a 2-3f buff on a Rusket made Russia go from a non-factor to one of the most played civs of the recent tournament.

[Djigit]

I'd nerf the Age3 uhlan shipments and keep RE uhlan stats.
Also, if xp is a problem then reduce the xp penalty => Tadaa, Germans are better on non-tp maps now.

People really cry when it comes to Germans (top RE & EP civ), while I'd like to remind that French - the most average civ back in the day - has goons, starting crates cdb and scout nerfed.

Scout nerf is good though, the scout having a snare is complete bs.

All these nerfs are good. Now it's time to balance un-nerfed or barely nerfed civs like Germans.

[Goodspeed]

Would an uhlan cost change really do anything though? I would sooner look at nerfing their HP more. One advantage of that change is that it's tweakable

Absolutely. It would disincentivize training the unit, improving viability of options, and thus variety, and cause a bigger impact on your economy if you choose to train it.

Sure. My point was that you'd need a relatively big cost increase to make a difference, as opposed to the stats nerf.

Also, I hope you're being sarcastic, because that is frightening. A cost nerf is definitely more tweakable than and HP one.

I only said the HP nerf is tweakable. Not that it's more tweakable than a cost increase?

[gamevideo113]

First, even if "3 Settler Wagons" is nerfed, it will remain everyone's favorite part of any Germans game, because it would remain strong enough to be sent in virtually every build.

Second, nerfing the most viable shipment of the entire game seems a sound option, if you also want to nerf its civilization – it were a good thing, were it less viable. Having to choose between a stronger shipment, or Uhlans, helps make for good depth of strategy, instead of non-decisions.

Third, the defining feature of "3 Settler Wagons" is not the 2 Uhlans – it is the 3SW; just as it is the 2SW for the Discovery-Age shipment, and the 3 Jägers with the "10 Jäger shipment". Please note how these many other shipments already don't come with any Uhlans. That's what makes them unique! As far as I'm aware, 3SW is the only shipment that comes with a bonus & Uhlans, to boot. Now that is both overpowered, and inconsistent, poor design.

Fourth, if there is but one thing you shouldn't do, it is nerfing 3SW to 5 Settlers. That would be the most standardizing thing you could possibly do, relative to other civilizations. Removing the Uhlans from this particular shipment isn't removing any civilization bonus; it's removing the extra bonus that no other shipment, of the civilization, has.

During the beta, I intend to poll the option, among players.

Uhlans would have to be removed from all the settler wagon shipments though for consistency, making the 4 SW shipment a bit shite. If you look at the civ description i think it wouldn't be too bad/ugly to sneak a "and settler wagons" in

Receives Uhlans with Home City shipments (except TEAM ones) from Colonial Age and beyond; mercenary and settler wagon shipments contain more units instead, but Home City shipments requires 10% more experience to be available

[Riotcoke]

Maybe nerf the sw shipment to have one uhlan instead of two, making it just 3 sw makes the German colonial substantially weaker.

[Djigit]

I swear, discussing balance with Ger players is like negotiating with an Israeli or a Lebanese.
-5 hp, -1 uhlan for the 3sw shipment, +5 food cost are the solutions so far OMEGALUL

What's next? 7 landsknechts instead of 8? Uhlans getting a negative multiplier vs Tashunke Prowlers and Yojimbos?

[deleted_user0]

I swear, discussing balance with Ger players is like negotiating with an Israeli or a Lebanese.
-5 hp, -1 uhlan for the 3sw shipment, +5 food cost are the solutions so far OMEGALUL

What's next? 7 landsknechts instead of 8? Uhlans getting a negative multiplier vs Tashunke Prowlers and Yojimbos?

Under pressure, the German conspiracy lobby was forced to admit that Germans are op. Now they are finding a way to "nerf" them without any actual impact.