somppukunkku wrote:Like I stated in the other topic
a) Five opening german mirrors not a coincidence b) Bad map pool, especially after Kam.
I mean, going for a mirror isn’t necessarily indicative of how strong or weak something is. Those German mirrors were almost always on game 1 where you’re just trying to land on something fair, and Kaiser, Raphael, Snowww, and myself are all very confident in German mirrors so there’s no reason to refuse one.
It is strongly indicative. Also, whoever says that Germany wouldn't be (one of) top civ(s) in Kam lies.
Goodspeed wrote:Would an uhlan cost change really do anything though? I would sooner look at nerfing their HP more. One advantage of that change is that it's tweakable
Absolutely. It would disincentivize training the unit, improving viability of options, and thus variety, and cause a bigger impact on your economy if you choose to train it.
Sure. My point was that you'd need a relatively big cost increase to make a difference, as opposed to the stats nerf.
Also, I hope you're being sarcastic, because that is frightening. A cost nerf is definitely more tweakable than and HP one.
I only said the HP nerf is tweakable. Not that it's more tweakable than a cost increase?
First, if it isn't more tweakble, it isn't an advantage over a cost nerf, which is what we are talking about. It's perfectly apparent to everyone that you were directly implying that it was. Please stop pretending you aren't already aware of this.
I honestly wasn't implying that. I didn't mention it as an advantage over a cost change, just as an advantage in general. My point was that, since it is tweakable, I would prefer to build on the existing change.
Second, it's tweakable between 0 and 10 IE, not at all.
I don't agree. There are plenty of break points between 170 and 190, and even if there weren't, in most fights it's often a combination of units hitting the uhlan so every 1 HP makes a (slight) difference. If you think it has to go in steps of 10, you could nerf HP to 170 and compensate with a small attack buff.
Nerfing HP any further would be a balance and PR disaster.
I don't think it would be a balance disaster. PR, probably. I'm not necessarily a fan either, I'm just saying I prefer it over a cost change. Both affect the unit's cost-effectiveness, and in order to have the same balance impact you would need to nerf cost effectiveness more with a cost change since shipped uhlans are not affected. So if you think a further HP nerf would already make the unit not worth training, then a cost change would be an even worse option.
Kaiserklein wrote:Jaegers and manchus are too strong. Not the card.
20% on one specific type of unit isn't op, you have the same for jans and strelets for example. If that's op, then we need to nerf cav combat for some civs like dutch russia or otto, which affects every single cav unit, including mams, manchus, etc, on top of their regular cav.
A significant problem is that Uhlans (which is a bad unit, but you get so many for free) are traded into mercs. And not only that, Jäger shipment gets even 90 resource surplus for them!
Well that's why 13 jaegers being changed into 12 would be a good change. Jaegers are very strong and 13 of them is a bit too much. I don't think 9 br is really a problem though.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
somppukunkku wrote:A significant problem is that Uhlans (which is a bad unit, but you get so many for free) are traded into mercs. And not only that, Jäger shipment gets even 90 resource surplus for them!
Same as Black Riders, the difference being that Jägers are better units.
From what i've seen, most people dislike the amount of free Uhlans Germany gets and dislike the uhlan nerf, because these 10hp work magic in the number of hits needed to kill for various common units, making their effective combat much weaker than a measly 5% hp nerf would suggest. So i'm wondering if we can do both, buff uhlans and nerf the free mass Germany gets. Some people advocate for only one uhlan in colonial and two in fortress, but i find that a bit drastic, compromising the civ bonus and tbh, what will one uhlan do in colonial? Scout? Maybe a Uhlan rework is better, which could go along the lines of this:
Reduce Uhlans HP to 165 (so Hussars don't perfect-kill them anymore, and colonial Musks need only one less shot to kill them, they also die in the same amount of hits vs pikes) Reduce Uhlan Attack to 34. This is a 15% HP reduction and 10% Attack reduction. They now kill Hussars in 10 hits instead of 9. They still kill villagers in the same number of hits. Reduce Uhlan cost to 40f 90c (or something along of this) and reduce train time from 35seconds to 31. Vet Uhlans and normal Uhlans are still killed in 4hits by Goons, only with 190hp was it 5hit for Vet-Uhlans.
This now means that the free Uhlans are weaker, but also a lot more affordable and faster to make, because of their increase in cost-effectiveness. Their fighting capability does not diminish significantly, only when mixed units are fighting will there be a big difference, meaning the big uhlan swarm on top of your army is weaker, but not so much the skillfully manouvered uhlan that is trying to trap a Hussar.
I wouldn't nerf the SW-shipments, since extra economy for Germans is fair, since they need to chop more for popspace (if they want to make use of the Uhlans). So in a way, this Uhlan-rework would slightly nerf the German economy too, since now they need even more popspace for the same power-level.
For the crate starts, i think only 300f 200w is op, since for 200f 200w the macro is quite tight (remember France without food crate?). So removing the 300f 200w start would be an idea. This way early tp is still a thing, but no ez-gg FF without seriously good treasures. Maybe even make 100f 200w start a thing as the only 200w start, but i'm unsure here.
In the lategame, this now obvioulsy means Uhlans are much, much weaker since their base stats are lower, making the upgrades worse and they are even more pop-inefficient. To counteract that, Lippizaner-Cav (the age4 upgrade) could now reduce the popspace for uhlans to 1. Stats would need to be adjusted accordingly, so maybe Lippizaner Cav only gives 10%hp and atk instead of 20% like right now (maybe i'm wrong with the numbers here). I could have sworn, some long time ago when i was a little kid the french age4 curassier-cost-reduction did the same from 2 to 3, did that get nerfed at some point or am i just misremembering? xD
Please tell me what you think about these suggestions. :) Btw, the numbers are just an idea to give a direction.
It's not a nerf imo, rather a rework and buff. Also i think a general -100f would be too brutal, it totally killed France back then and would kill Germany even more, since they wouldnt't be able to do anything age 1 except gathering food.
Scroogie wrote:It's not a nerf imo, rather a rework and buff. Also i think a general -100f would be too brutal, it totally killed France back then and would kill Germany even more, since they wouldnt't be able to do anything age 1 except gathering food.
It's a big nerf. Even if it weren't, it would be a bad rework. With -100f, Germany wouldn't be weak, and I don't remember France getting -100f. Anyway, it would deny the age 1 TP.
Scroogie wrote:It's not a nerf imo, rather a rework and buff. Also i think a general -100f would be too brutal, it totally killed France back then and would kill Germany even more, since they wouldnt't be able to do anything age 1 except gathering food.
It's a big nerf. Even if it weren't, it would be a bad rework. With -100f, Germany wouldn't be weak, and I don't remember France getting -100f. Anyway, it would deny the age 1 TP.
On AS fanpatch they had -100f IIRC. Could be wrong though, been a long time.
I think -100f would kinda kill Germany’s early macro. They already have idle time on their 17v age up a lot of the time.
Scroogie wrote:It's not a nerf imo, rather a rework and buff. Also i think a general -100f would be too brutal, it totally killed France back then and would kill Germany even more, since they wouldnt't be able to do anything age 1 except gathering food.
It's a big nerf. Even if it weren't, it would be a bad rework. With -100f, Germany wouldn't be weak, and I don't remember France getting -100f. Anyway, it would deny the age 1 TP.
On AS fanpatch they had -100f IIRC. Could be wrong though, been a long time.
I think -100f would kinda kill Germany’s early macro. They already have idle time on their 17v age up a lot of the time.
It would make Germany 8sec slower, it sounds like a reasonable nerf to me.
Kaiserklein wrote:Jaegers and manchus are too strong. Not the card.
20% on one specific type of unit isn't op, you have the same for jans and strelets for example. If that's op, then we need to nerf cav combat for some civs like dutch russia or otto, which affects every single cav unit, including mams, manchus, etc, on top of their regular cav.
This.
Jaegers 40% is the thing that makes them a bit too strong. For manchus I'd say no stat is actually unusual, just CA unit type is nice in general. 20% on a single unit type is the norm. However mercs have higher base stats so their design becomes even more extreme. Also it's 20% on single unit type but many different units in practice. Also 13 jaegers is 600g extra to the 10 jaegers card. Germans bonus is supposed to be 450 res in fortress age.
Kaiserklein wrote:Jaegers and manchus are too strong. Not the card.
20% on one specific type of unit isn't op, you have the same for jans and strelets for example. If that's op, then we need to nerf cav combat for some civs like dutch russia or otto, which affects every single cav unit, including mams, manchus, etc, on top of their regular cav.
This.
Jaegers 40% is the thing that makes them a bit too strong. For manchus I'd say no stat is actually unusual, just CA unit type is nice in general. 20% on a single unit type is the norm. However mercs have higher base stats so their design becomes even more extreme. Also it's 20% on single unit type but many difference units in practice. Also 13 jaegers is 600g extra to the 10 jaegers card. Germans bonus is supposed to be 450 res in fortress age.
Garja wrote:Also 13 jaegers is 600g extra to the 10 jaegers card. Germans bonus is supposed to be 450 res in fortress age.
And that's on top of the unquantifiable bonus of simply getting more of exactly the unit you want rather than the unit you want + some shitty cav. Imagine if Germany's skirm shipments were 12 and 11
Scroogie wrote:It's not a nerf imo, rather a rework and buff. Also i think a general -100f would be too brutal, it totally killed France back then and would kill Germany even more, since they wouldnt't be able to do anything age 1 except gathering food.
It's a big nerf. Even if it weren't, it would be a bad rework. With -100f, Germany wouldn't be weak, and I don't remember France getting -100f. Anyway, it would deny the age 1 TP.
On AS fanpatch they had -100f IIRC. Could be wrong though, been a long time.
I think -100f would kinda kill Germany’s early macro. They already have idle time on their 17v age up a lot of the time.
It would make Germany 8sec slower, it sounds like a reasonable nerf to me.
It’s larger than that. It’s not just about time but also with market/TP. That’s a lot of lost resources.
If you remove 100f you pretty much have to put your vills on food and do nothing else, which is also just boring.
You simply can't tweak starting crates as you want. There is a base rule which is enough food for 2 vills and enough wood for a house. And because of this design reason 100f would in fact be too much of a nerf for Germans.
Garja wrote:You simply can't tweak starting crates as you want. There is a base rule which is enough food for 2 vills and enough wood for a house. And because of this design reason 100f would in fact be too much of a nerf for Germans.
Scroogie wrote:It's not a nerf imo, rather a rework and buff. Also i think a general -100f would be too brutal, it totally killed France back then and would kill Germany even more, since they wouldnt't be able to do anything age 1 except gathering food.
It's a big nerf. Even if it weren't, it would be a bad rework. With -100f, Germany wouldn't be weak, and I don't remember France getting -100f. Anyway, it would deny the age 1 TP.
On AS fanpatch they had -100f IIRC. Could be wrong though, been a long time.
I think -100f would kinda kill Germany’s early macro. They already have idle time on their 17v age up a lot of the time.
It would make Germany 8sec slower, it sounds like a reasonable nerf to me.
Seriously? -100f lol? What a garbage nerf. You know that means you wouldn't even be able to train vils without idle time on a 100f start?? Ports already struggle to prod vils on 100f, yet they have 7 vils and their vils cost 85f, and they don't have to herd with settler wagons... Then there's also no way to go market or TP on 100f start obviously, and even on 200f you still idle. This would just make the age 1 more boring. And germany would still be able to grab a TP if they get the right crates start anyway... Or the right treasures.
Like Mitoe said germany already struggle sometimes in age 1. When we removed 100f from france it was a terrible change, even though they always had at least 200f lol...
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
