Germans Discussion Thread

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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

-100f was shite for french and would be even worse for germans. scroogie the reworking uhlans thing just would be a huge nerf as batches would be weaker and less impactful, youd need more housing, and youd have even more pathing issues than you would alreadhy have if you have to mass even more to match the same "strength" (alot weaker as the ones in the back dont actually get to hit stuff). This would encourage german players to further stray away from uhlans and be turned into yet another skirm goon civ (skirm/jaegar ww).
As ive stated before, i do think uhlans should be usable again, regardless of balance the unit just doesnt seem fun anymore besides raiding (even die to 1 less shot from tc). And as alot of people have stated before removing 1 uhlan from each fortress/ key shipments seems like a feasible nerf. Also 12 jaegars with 30 resist.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Scroogie »

I see how the pathing and formation is a problem, and i assume you can't program it so that they pack up tightly like ruyters?

Since everybody is losing their minds on -100f, the only thing i proposed was eliminating 300f 200w start, since that's just a free TP into yoloFF no questions asked. Every other crate start at least creates some macro issues, as it should when you're trying to squeeze extra stuff in. No -100f generally, just eliminating the strongest crate start.

I agree with 12 Jaegers and also removing 1 Uhlan from each fortress shipment, but i would keep 2 free Uhlans in Fortress, and then also give them back 10hp.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

I think switching from sending 13 jaegers to 7 skirms makes almost no difference in term of civ strenght. It might also buff the civ.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Dsy wrote:I think switching from sending 13 jaegers to 7 skirms makes almost no difference in term of civ strenght. It might also buff the civ.

It does lol. Jaegers are just insane.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

It was the results for cost effectivity.
Jaeger - 69
Vet skirmisher - 65

Basicly jaegers a bit stronger, but since they merc they come delayed.
And jeagers tend to do better since if only the first line fires in a skirm war, the backline cant shoot which negates number advantage in fights.
So basicly a bit stronger unit more suitable for some cases, however you need to save resource and delay production.
Overall i feel 7 skirms is a better from this conclusion...
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Not sure about your maths lol. Jaegers are op.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

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Post by yemshi »

You really need to stop with your weird effieciency formula. Jägers are insane. As easy.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

Since 1k coin is equivalent of 10 skimrs add 7 = 17
Others side is 10 jeagers since -3 from uhlan difference.

Its basicly 10 jeagers vs 17 skirms.
Jeagers wins but you also pay for the delay.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

lmao 7 skirms
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Sargsyan »

Dsy wrote:Since 1k coin is equivalent of 10 skimrs add 7 = 17
Others side is 10 jeagers since -3 from uhlan difference.

Its basicly 10 jeagers vs 17 skirms.
Jeagers wins but you also pay for the delay.

i like how u completely ignore their high attack, it's not always about the resources
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Dsy wrote:Since 1k coin is equivalent of 10 skimrs add 7 = 17
Others side is 10 jeagers since -3 from uhlan difference.

Its basicly 10 jeagers vs 17 skirms.
Jeagers wins but you also pay for the delay.

10 jaegers vs 17 skirms is not close.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

30 RR for jaegar and be done with it. could also subtract 1 jaegar from the ger merc shipment i guess
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

30 RR jaegers would be better than -1jaeger actually, as it would also nerf the unit from the saloon.
Germany also deserves some other nerfs though.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:30 RR jaegers would be better than -1jaeger actually, as it would also nerf the unit from the saloon.
Germany also deserves some other nerfs though.

Doesn't that indirectly nerf france though?
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Riotcoke wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:30 RR jaegers would be better than -1jaeger actually, as it would also nerf the unit from the saloon.
Germany also deserves some other nerfs though.

Doesn't that indirectly nerf france though?

Why?
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:30 RR jaegers would be better than -1jaeger actually, as it would also nerf the unit from the saloon.
Germany also deserves some other nerfs though.

Doesn't that indirectly nerf france though?

Why?

France have a 10 jaeger shipment that isn't too uncommon.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Riotcoke wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Why?

France have a 10 jaeger shipment that isn't too uncommon.

I've never seen a French player using that shipment.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Erik and optete
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

not even a bad shipment. I think i have it in my deck aswell.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Mercs all have extra resistance to standard units. The problem is that ranged resistance is more impactful on gameplay and skirm also don't have any ranged units that counter (think instead of Black riders whcih have -40% meelee but they still get countered by pike type units in meelee).
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

It's not bad, but can't say that it would be a nerf to France xD.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Honestly nerfing jaegers would be a step in a good direction in balancing 9/10 of germany games and maybe a small nerf for france in 1/50 of their games. The choice is a no brainer imo.
Btw yeah it would be good not to mess with the starting crates again. It would be definitely better to base the balancing on uhlan cost, uhlan stats and general xp shipment cost.
Perhaps xp penalty could depend on the age:
15% in discovery (to nerf 2 WW i guess, but honestly could still be 10% since france gets 3.75 vils anyway and nobody complains about that)
10% in colonial (to help on no tp maps)
15% on fortress (to nerf typical ff/semi-ff game)
10% again in industrial
Not sure if possible, probably not, but i guess you could tweak the xp costs of shipments anyway.
Maybe just give a further xp penalty for shipments between 3 and 10 but change uhlan cost to 50f 90g. Also a lot of people aren't happy with the current uhlan nerf so this could be a good chance revert the nerf and find another way around (ranged resist?).

If we want to keep the crates intact (which imo is the way to go) we need to find a way to tweak both non tp and tp maps, since the civ is one of the most map-unconsistent civs.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

gamevideo113 wrote:Honestly nerfing jaegers would be a step in a good direction in balancing 9/10 of germany games and maybe a small nerf for france in 1/50 of their games. The choice is a no brainer imo.
Btw yeah it would be good not to mess with the starting crates again. It would be definitely better to base the balancing on uhlan cost, uhlan stats and general xp shipment cost.
Perhaps xp penalty could depend on the age:
15% in discovery (to nerf 2 WW i guess, but honestly could still be 10% since france gets 3.75 vils anyway and nobody complains about that)
10% in colonial (to help on no tp maps)
15% on fortress (to nerf typical ff/semi-ff game)
10% again in industrial
Not sure if possible, probably not, but i guess you could tweak the xp costs of shipments anyway.
Maybe just give a further xp penalty for shipments between 3 and 10 but change uhlan cost to 50f 90g. Also a lot of people aren't happy with the current uhlan nerf so this could be a good chance revert the nerf and find another way around (ranged resist?).

If we want to keep the crates intact (which imo is the way to go) we need to find a way to tweak both non tp and tp maps, since the civ is one of the most map-unconsistent civs.

That makes them more tp dependent, which zoom doesn't want to do.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

xp penalty is not in the xp trickle, it's simply more xp required for each shipment. You can't tell exactly in which age Germans are going to send each shipment, not for all the variety of possible games at least.
If anything we could try to make the xp penalty progressive in the sense that from let's say 5th shipment or so each next shipment requires a certain amount of extra xp compared to now. Basically same idea but making it progressive and not age based. Not sure how much this is useful for balance tho.
Anyway I dont think Germans currently need too many nerfs, aside from jaegers and maybe -5% on merc combat.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

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Post by Rikikipu »

Wouldn't it be elegant if we nerf TPs by giving every pass less exp ? It would allow to slightly nerf germany and some other strong civs on tp maps without nerfing their already "unplayable" abilities on no tp maps.

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