Germans Discussion Thread

[Garja]

I honestly didn't even check again your post, but anyway I'm talking without stagecoach.
The formula should be as easy as xp bounty/seconds requires for one passage. Obviously I'm talking about a single TP.

[princeofcarthage]

On an average tps generate 1.2/sec 2.0/sec 2.4/sec slight difference are due to curve and length of trade route

[Astaroth]

When looking at Germany's strength, it can be helpful to compare it to France's:

In a typical semi-FF war, Germany is quite clearly vastly superior to France on TP maps, even vs other civs:

Germany reaches Age3 with a similar eco and at a similar time to France. Both use the same politicians, similar builds and send comparable vill shipments.

However, once in Age3, Germany is just much stronger:

French advantages in Age3: slightly better scaling eco over time (doesn't matter in the first 15 or so mins), somewhat better units (huss and cuirs are better than uhlans without shipments, but huss are rarely worth it and cuirs too expensive early on)., 2 falc shipment.

In contrast, Germany gets a much bigger mass. If you discount the lost uhlans (which often kill vills), Germany gets a massively bigger army:

With 2 age2 and 3 Age3 shipments, France will often have: 8 skirm, 2 falc, 5 goons.

Germany in contrast will have from shipments alone: 8 skirm, 3 WW and 19 (!) uhlans - shipment of 9, 2x
3 and 2x2.

So you essentially trade an at best very slightly better eco (mby 2 vills equalling 2 or 3 extra units) and having 2 falcs for 19 uhlans. That's hardly worth it. Oh, and don't forget mercs not the fact that the following shipments don't make it any better for France: France can go (regarding unit shipments) like 7 skirm 3 cuir, Germany goes 7 skirm and 11 uhlan.

France has a few other advantages (age2 musks and huss), Native scout, less XP for shipments, less raidable vills, but as long as Germany can FF with a TP these hardly matter.

Tl;dr: France is a bit of a poor man's Germany with slightly better eco and age2, but much weaker in the main phase of the game from ca. 8 to 15mins.

[[Armag] diarouga]

France is overall weaker than Germany, not sure anyone tries to deny that. Musks and the 2 falc shipments are really your only advantage (goons aren't really an advantage anymore and you have cdb but Germany has SW).

[pingiu]

cuirs? and huss? and in 3 age battels i would still much reather have goons then ww

[Kaiserklein]

There's many advantages france has over ger. I'm not saying france isn't weaker than germany, it's probably a bit weaker. Germany had advantages over France, sure, but saying that musks and falcs are your only advantage is plain wrong.


France has a better age 1 with the scout and they're also faster in age 1. With a couple treasures I'm rather often able to age up 14 with both hunting dogs and a TP, which you can't really do as ger. France is also able to age up 13 sometimes, which is kinda OP, while ger can very rarely age a vil early.

You have musks but also huss in age 2, huss being obviously better than uhlans. You don't get free uhlans so you have a bit less mass, but needing less houses overall and having stronger units makes up for that. There's some very strong musk huss bow timings you can hit as france for example, while ger would get bow dop uhlan which isn't nearly as good.

Goons are better than WWs and claiming the opposite is just lying. Even if goons don't beat WWs (which I'm pretty sure they still do), they're just more mobile and easier to mass. Only thing is wws having 16 range, but it doesn't fully make up for the unit being very awkward.

Cuirs are also better than uhlans. I don't think I need to explain this. And they don't require veterancy.

France has a much better lategame and a slightly better eco overall as well. The skirm upgrades can be nice. Though to be fair their colo upgrades don't affect goons which is sad (and in lategame yes WWs are probably better than french goons).

And cdbs are easily better than SWs (and you anyway don't have more than 8 SWs usually). They're definitely an advantage.

[Mitoe]

France is criminally underrated right now.

[Cometk]

France is criminally underrated right now.

are they a tournament-worthy civilization though?

as a lowly pr30, and principal tournament administrator, my perspective, as according to the usage statistics of the Tri-Civ Cup, tells me that France is a civ that is hardly considered viable for competitive play by the top players. is there a key piece that i'm missing here?

[Mitoe]

What about Kaiser? He plays them a lot with good success. I’m honestly not sure why they are played so infrequently right now. Maybe it’s just the nature of the civ picking rules; France doesn’t super hard counter anything so you go for something that DOES hard counter the opponent. As for why they don’t get first picked—well, most of the maps are also pretty favourable for civs other than France.

I think if you were to do a tournament where players didn’t know matchup or map beforehand France would be a pretty common pick along with India.

[Riotcoke]

France is criminally underrated right now.

are they a tournament-worthy civilization though?

as a lowly pr30, and principal tournament administrator, my perspective, as according to the usage statistics of the Tri-Civ Cup, tells me that France is a civ that is hardly considered viable for competitive play by the top players. is there a key piece that i'm missing here?

In a tournament setting, especially with the switch from old civ rules to the winner picks first rules, france is a very nice civ for tournaments as it can't be counterpicked. I think the main problem with France though is that it's just so boring and doesn't have any quirks, and even though it's balanced it's just a bit stale.

[Kawapasaka]

France can also card their skirms in super long drawn-out skirm wars. Granted not as quickly/effectively as Dutch, Iro, China, India etc. but it's still something that Germany can't do.

[Riotcoke]

France can also card their skirms in super long drawn-out skirm wars. Granted not as quickly/effectively as Dutch, Iro, China, India etc. but it's still something that Germany can't do.

That's true, germany's only skirm upgrade is in age 4 and it's shit, only +15 percent hp.

[duckzilla]

France can also card their skirms in super long drawn-out skirm wars. Granted not as quickly/effectively as Dutch, Iro, China, India etc. but it's still something that Germany can't do.

That's true, germany's only skirm upgrade is in age 4 and it's shit, only +15 percent hp.

It's actually +15% skirm hp + 4 Uhlans

[Riotcoke]

France can also card their skirms in super long drawn-out skirm wars. Granted not as quickly/effectively as Dutch, Iro, China, India etc. but it's still something that Germany can't do.

That's true, germany's only skirm upgrade is in age 4 and it's shit, only +15 percent hp.

It's actually +15% skirm hp + 4 Uhlans

And Xbow HP. 4 uhlans is irrelevant anyway as all age 4 shipments have 4 uhlan.

[Kawapasaka]

France can also card their skirms in super long drawn-out skirm wars. Granted not as quickly/effectively as Dutch, Iro, China, India etc. but it's still something that Germany can't do.

That's true, germany's only skirm upgrade is in age 4 and it's shit, only +15 percent hp.

Yes, funnily France gets the exact same card, but in age 2. However, they already have an even better version of it in age 2 as well.
It's kinda sad that German skirms get royal guard but with all available upgrades considered they are among the worst in the game.

[Riotcoke]

France can also card their skirms in super long drawn-out skirm wars. Granted not as quickly/effectively as Dutch, Iro, China, India etc. but it's still something that Germany can't do.

That's true, germany's only skirm upgrade is in age 4 and it's shit, only +15 percent hp.

Yes, funnily France gets the exact same card, but in age 2. However, they already have an even better version of it in age 2 as well.
It's kinda sad that German skirms get royal guard but with all available upgrades considered they are among the worst in the game.

Royal guard in of itself is sort of a downgrade in supremacy most of the time.

[Kawapasaka]

Show hidden quotes

France can also card their skirms in super long drawn-out skirm wars. Granted not as quickly/effectively as Dutch, Iro, China, India etc. but it's still something that Germany can't do.

That's true, germany's only skirm upgrade is in age 4 and it's shit, only +15 percent hp.

Yes, funnily France gets the exact same card, but in age 2. However, they already have an even better version of it in age 2 as well.
It's kinda sad that German skirms get royal guard but with all available upgrades considered they are among the worst in the game.

Royal guard in of itself is sort of a downgrade in supremacy most of the time.

Depends on how much eco you're going to Industrial with, if it's an FI then yeah I imagine having to pay the extra 800 res isn't ideal.
Otherwise I think it's pretty in-line with most age 3 combat cards, maybe a little bit worse in resource value. But definitely something valuable eventually.

[Riotcoke]

Show hidden quotes

France can also card their skirms in super long drawn-out skirm wars. Granted not as quickly/effectively as Dutch, Iro, China, India etc. but it's still something that Germany can't do.

That's true, germany's only skirm upgrade is in age 4 and it's shit, only +15 percent hp.

Yes, funnily France gets the exact same card, but in age 2. However, they already have an even better version of it in age 2 as well.
It's kinda sad that German skirms get royal guard but with all available upgrades considered they are among the worst in the game.

Royal guard in of itself is sort of a downgrade in supremacy most of the time.

Depends on how much eco you're going to Industrial with, if it's an FI then yeah I imagine having to pay the extra 800 res isn't ideal.
Otherwise I think it's pretty in-line with most age 3 combat cards, maybe a little bit worse in resource value. But definitely something valuable eventually.

You have to remember that for Germany it's two guard ups that cost 1k wood and 1k gold, same for french.

[gamevideo113]

As a matter of fact it is a good idea to go for WW+artillery when you go IV with germany, rather than uhlan skirm

[lordraphael]

Ye royal guard should be split into an extra upgrade imo. It's really most of the time just worse to have it.

[Hazza54321]

yeah isnt it like 800more res for 10%? lol

[Garja]

Ye, it probably somehow had sense on nilla. With TWC and TAD having even cheaper ups it seems a bit excessive.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah 800 res for 10% is somewhat decent if you can afford it, definitely worth it in late game. But realistically it's not very affordable in sup. I also think you should be able to tech the guard upgrade separately from the royal guard, so that it's really an advantage and not a burden.

[Riotcoke]

Aren't the Chinese ups 300 wood 300 coin in industrial, it seems insane that they get 30 percent for less than royal guard ups costing 10 percent.

[Goodspeed]

Not every upgrade has to be the same quality so there's nothing wrong with China's upgrades being cheaper, but I do agree royal guard should be a bonus not a burden. Should just be 600/600