Germans Discussion Thread

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Serbia Atomiswave
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Garja wrote:Which is more or less the same thing. I mean, I see the nuance of what you mean but again I actually meant that the gap between them and other civs is minimal compared to any other imbalance in this game.
I'm actually convinced that there is a number of civs that can counter Germans to the point that their main strategy is not viable (which makes them normal again).
French are as good as Germans at the moment. And China is also on the same level when it comes to one single strategy.


In your opinion, how do Spain and Ports fare against Ger in current version of ep?
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

Atomiswave wrote:
Garja wrote:Which is more or less the same thing. I mean, I see the nuance of what you mean but again I actually meant that the gap between them and other civs is minimal compared to any other imbalance in this game.
I'm actually convinced that there is a number of civs that can counter Germans to the point that their main strategy is not viable (which makes them normal again).
French are as good as Germans at the moment. And China is also on the same level when it comes to one single strategy.


Ok, in your opinion, how do Spain and Ports fare against Ger in current version of ep?

German is counter civ to ports.
also, if you consider the fact that uhlans have low hp, 2 falconets with rodeleros and highlanders protecting them will demolish everything germany has
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Spain should be able to force German in a colonial game because of Rods.
Ports just semi and probably lose because they mass less. If Germans miss the window however Ports outscale them.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

thebritish wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
Garja wrote:Which is more or less the same thing. I mean, I see the nuance of what you mean but again I actually meant that the gap between them and other civs is minimal compared to any other imbalance in this game.
I'm actually convinced that there is a number of civs that can counter Germans to the point that their main strategy is not viable (which makes them normal again).
French are as good as Germans at the moment. And China is also on the same level when it comes to one single strategy.


Ok, in your opinion, how do Spain and Ports fare against Ger in current version of ep?

German is counter civ to ports.
also, if you consider the fact that uhlans have low hp, 2 falconets with rodeleros and highlanders protecting them will demolish everything germany has


That's what i wanted to hear!

Maybe I am being too optimistic, but i expect from ep to eliminate counter civ aspect of AOE III, without ruining civ identity and uniqueness. Not right now of course, it takes time, testing and big effort but i sincerely think that these guys could do it! Don't get me wrong I don't expect complete balance, but it would be great if ep could reduce number of tiers from 5 to two, 7 each. That would be big achievement.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:Spain should be able to force German in a colonial game because of Rods.
Ports just semi and probably lose because they mass less. If Germans miss the window however Ports outscale them.


How can spain force ger into colonial ? I usually go 3 sw 700w naked ff as ger, and if I see rods in colo I can just switch for a rax and a few dops. Max 5 dops in base + mm + free uhlans and you're pretty safe, even with 20 rods I don't think he will attack. Then age up ?
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Atomiswave wrote:Safest possible nerf would be to reduce uhlan shipments from 5-4, 8-7 and 9-8. I know it doesn't mean much, but it's good starting point.

nah not at all, perhaps 2x8 uhlan in age 3
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:Safest possible nerf would be to reduce uhlan shipments from 5-4, 8-7 and 9-8. I know it doesn't mean much, but it's good starting point.

nah not at all, perhaps 2x8 uhlan in age 3


Minus one uhlan is insignificant nerf. 7 and 8 in age 3 is at least something...
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

thebritish wrote:the 5 uhlans shipment is one of the worst in the game.
because it is actually 3 uhlan shipment, and 3 huss>3uhlan, even 3 huss>4uhlan
the only good thing for the 3 uhlan shipment is that it get 2 uhan as a bonus for every shipment, so 5 uhlans are better than 3 huss


3 huss dont beat 4 ulans
and people really should stop taking the free 2 bonus ulans into account . By that logic the shipments of 8 and 9 Uhlans which are vastly considered OP would be only mediocre at best because if you substract the 3 free Uhlans it would only be a 5 and 6 Uhlan shipment which doesnt sound that great to me.
Its a 5 ulan shipment which is good. It actually says a lot about the opness of the other german shipments if 5 ulans is considered a weak shipment for germany. Literally all civs would love to be able to send 5 ulan as a shipment.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

lordraphael wrote:
thebritish wrote:the 5 uhlans shipment is one of the worst in the game.
because it is actually 3 uhlan shipment, and 3 huss>3uhlan, even 3 huss>4uhlan
the only good thing for the 3 uhlan shipment is that it get 2 uhan as a bonus for every shipment, so 5 uhlans are better than 3 huss


3 huss dont beat 4 ulans
and people really should stop taking the free 2 bonus ulans into account . By that logic the shipments of 8 and 9 Uhlans which are vastly considered OP would be only mediocre at best because if you substract the 3 free Uhlans it would only be a 5 and 6 Uhlan shipment which doesnt sound that great to me.
Its a 5 ulan shipment which is good. It actually says a lot about the opness of the other german shipments if 5 ulans is considered a weak shipment for germany. Literally all civs would love to be able to send 5 ulan as a shipment.


+1
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

The uhlan per shipment to either +1, +2, +3 or just +2 all around the board could work.

Something like uhlans getting a 0.75 multiplier vs villagers could work aswell imo. Those are the best changes imo.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

the fact that Germany requires more xp for their shipments means they need a tp, and if you let them keep their tp up, its your fault if you lose.
Try playing against somebody and get his tp down, and you will beat him without any problem because he wont have the mass
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by farran34 »

thebritish wrote:the fact that Germany requires more xp for their shipments means they need a tp, and if you let them keep their tp up, its your fault if you lose.
Try playing against somebody and get his tp down, and you will beat him without any problem because he wont have the mass


And what happens if they take a defensive tp....?
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

farran34 wrote:
thebritish wrote:the fact that Germany requires more xp for their shipments means they need a tp, and if you let them keep their tp up, its your fault if you lose.
Try playing against somebody and get his tp down, and you will beat him without any problem because he wont have the mass


And what happens if they take a defensive tp....?

playing defensive vs germany is not the way to win. sorry if this dissapointed you
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

lordraphael wrote:
thebritish wrote:the 5 uhlans shipment is one of the worst in the game.
because it is actually 3 uhlan shipment, and 3 huss>3uhlan, even 3 huss>4uhlan
the only good thing for the 3 uhlan shipment is that it get 2 uhan as a bonus for every shipment, so 5 uhlans are better than 3 huss


3 huss dont beat 4 ulans
and people really should stop taking the free 2 bonus ulans into account . By that logic the shipments of 8 and 9 Uhlans which are vastly considered OP would be only mediocre at best because if you substract the 3 free Uhlans it would only be a 5 and 6 Uhlan shipment which doesnt sound that great to me.
Its a 5 ulan shipment which is good. It actually says a lot about the opness of the other german shipments if 5 ulans is considered a weak shipment for germany. Literally all civs would love to be able to send 5 ulan as a shipment.
It's their civ bonus..

Obviously, their shipments should be better than the average. You say people should stop taking the bonus uhlans into account, I would argue the opposite: people should take them into account more, and stop calling 9+8 cav OP shipments which they are far from and if they are why isn't 8 skirm OP? Why aren't 1000w/1000g OP?

It's almost like calling Brit houses OP. If the German civ bonus is too strong we can nerf that but it has little to do with individual shipments. With that in mind nerfing the 5 uhlan shipment would be a ridiculous change, it's already a mediocre shipment at best.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by britishmusketeer »

thebritish wrote:
farran34 wrote:
thebritish wrote:the fact that Germany requires more xp for their shipments means they need a tp, and if you let them keep their tp up, its your fault if you lose.
Try playing against somebody and get his tp down, and you will beat him without any problem because he wont have the mass


And what happens if they take a defensive tp....?

playing defensive vs germany is not the way to win. sorry if this dissapointed you

rofl
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by iNcog »

I'm just going to leave this here:

I would not nerf Germany. Nor would I nerf any other civilization. I think that the best course of action is to boost the civilizations with underwhelming power and put them on the same level as Germany.

I have heard from many top players that Germany and France are already pretty much on par. It would be best to have those civilizations be the benchmark civilizations and then try to bring every single civilization up to their level.

However, I digress, because I believe that it is far too early to make calls on the meta-game. If we had this discussion a year ago, we would be saying that Japan and India are the top civilizations. Yet, Japan, France, Germany and India are civilizations which did not get changed in the ESOC patch. We've gone from "India and Japan are the top civs" to "France and Germany are the top civs". TPs have been on RE maps, just like they've been on Garja maps. We already have top players like Garja and Raphael which are saying that there are counter-plays versus Germany.

We have Otto which were supposedly buffed, yet were considered OP from before. Yet very few people have actually been using these so-called "OP" Ottomans.

For this patch iteration, I believe that it is best to go in ONE direction only. That means that we should not look to nerf anything, we should only look to boost the civilizations which look or feel lackluster. This has the advantage of also being much more simple to actually play-test. I'm afraid that we might make the same mistake as the last Fanpatch: applying too many changes and completely altering the meta-game. Let's keep our meta-game and use it to get an ACCURATE feel of the relative strengths of civilizations.

Honestly I am reading this thread and some of the changes which are being proposed are simply too god damn big. It's against the patch's initial mind-set, which was to make very small, but pertinent changes. We must also keep what makes each civilization unique. Now we are discussing changing Germany's core civilization bonus which has been the same since 2005. Taking off one uhlan per shipment is basically taking away 8 uhlans from Germany over the course of the game. How is that NOT TOO BIG? It's not like Germany is currently rofl-stomping every other civilization like Japan did in 2010. You guys are discussing changes which are relatively huge compared to how close civilizations actually are in terms of strength.
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

iNcog wrote:I'm just going to leave this here:

I would not nerf Germany. Nor would I nerf any other civilization. I think that the best course of action is to boost the civilizations with underwhelming power and put them on the same level as Germany.

I have heard from many top players that Germany and France are already pretty much on par. It would be best to have those civilizations be the benchmark civilizations and then try to bring every single civilization up to their level.

However, I digress, because I believe that it is far too early to make calls on the meta-game. If we had this discussion a year ago, we would be saying that Japan and India are the top civilizations. Yet, Japan, France, Germany and India are civilizations which did not get changed in the ESOC patch. We've gone from "India and Japan are the top civs" to "France and Germany are the top civs". TPs have been on RE maps, just like they've been on Garja maps. We already have top players like Garja and Raphael which are saying that there are counter-plays versus Germany.

We have Otto which were supposedly buffed, yet were considered OP from before. Yet very few people have actually been using these so-called "OP" Ottomans.

For this patch iteration, I believe that it is best to go in ONE direction only. That means that we should not look to nerf anything, we should only look to boost the civilizations which look or feel lackluster. This has the advantage of also being much more simple to actually play-test. I'm afraid that we might make the same mistake as the last Fanpatch: applying too many changes and completely altering the meta-game. Let's keep our meta-game and use it to get an ACCURATE feel of the relative strengths of civilizations.

Honestly I am reading this thread and some of the changes which are being proposed are simply too god damn big. It's against the patch's initial mind-set, which was to make very small, but pertinent changes. We must also keep what makes each civilization unique. Now we are discussing changing Germany's core civilization bonus which has been the same since 2005. Taking off one uhlan per shipment is basically taking away 8 uhlans from Germany over the course of the game. How is that NOT TOO BIG? It's not like Germany is currently rofl-stomping every other civilization like Japan did in 2010. You guys are discussing changes which are relatively huge compared to how close civilizations actually are in terms of strength.


Ok, i get the point, but it should be much easier to nerf Ger, than buff for example 5 other civs. It's too much unneeded work, and it will require rigorous testing. It's longer and more complicated road, which doesn't even guarantee that final product will be better.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Again you seem to miss the point that top and bottom civs right now are pretty close in terms of strenght.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by farran34 »

thebritish wrote:
farran34 wrote:
thebritish wrote:the fact that Germany requires more xp for their shipments means they need a tp, and if you let them keep their tp up, its your fault if you lose.
Try playing against somebody and get his tp down, and you will beat him without any problem because he wont have the mass


And what happens if they take a defensive tp....?

playing defensive vs germany is not the way to win. sorry if this dissapointed you


AND WHAT IF GERMANY MAKES A DEFENSIVE TP******* aka one that you cannot easily kill
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

farran34 wrote:
thebritish wrote:
Show hidden quotes

playing defensive vs germany is not the way to win. sorry if this dissapointed you


AND WHAT IF GERMANY MAKES A DEFENSIVE TP******* aka one that you cannot easily kill


Build some pikes which have high siege dam and you will destroy it easily.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by tedere12 »

farran34 wrote:
thebritish wrote:
Show hidden quotes

playing defensive vs germany is not the way to win. sorry if this dissapointed you


AND WHAT IF GERMANY MAKES A DEFENSIVE TP******* aka one that you cannot easily kill

go age 4, make monitors and mortars and kill it from long range
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Mimsy for President »

farran34 wrote:
thebritish wrote:
Show hidden quotes

playing defensive vs germany is not the way to win. sorry if this dissapointed you


AND WHAT IF GERMANY MAKES A DEFENSIVE TP******* aka one that you cannot easily kill
don't even try to argue with him
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

lordraphael wrote:
thebritish wrote:the 5 uhlans shipment is one of the worst in the game.
because it is actually 3 uhlan shipment, and 3 huss>3uhlan, even 3 huss>4uhlan
the only good thing for the 3 uhlan shipment is that it get 2 uhan as a bonus for every shipment, so 5 uhlans are better than 3 huss


3 huss dont beat 4 ulans
and people really should stop taking the free 2 bonus ulans into account . By that logic the shipments of 8 and 9 Uhlans which are vastly considered OP would be only mediocre at best because if you substract the 3 free Uhlans it would only be a 5 and 6 Uhlan shipment which doesnt sound that great to me.
Its a 5 ulan shipment which is good. It actually says a lot about the opness of the other german shipments if 5 ulans is considered a weak shipment for germany. Literally all civs would love to be able to send 5 ulan as a shipment.

I don't get your logic. It's not about comparing to other civs, but to the other german shipments... 3+2 uhlans just suck compared to other shipments. 3 uhlans compared to 3 SW, 700w, 700g, 8 bows, even 3 dops or 600w 600g... The only case where it would be decent is for a surprise, popping from tc for example. But to do that job I feel like 3 dops are just way better.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

5 uhlans is weak come on, that's not a shipment you should send.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Mimsy for President »

It's maybe not the best shipment for germans but compared to the other civs, it's pretty good.

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