Germans Discussion Thread

[momuuu]

I feel that Germany is a civilization whose power could be offset with a simple early game nerf. Maybe 2 SW should become 1 vill + 1 SW.

Basically if you slow down the early game, you slow down the entire civ to the point where they're good.

That's with basically any civ though. It's also an insanely big nerf btw, almost the most you could nerf a civ I think.

[britishmusketeer]

I think 1 vill + 1 SW is a great change personally.

[iNcog]

I feel that Germany is a civilization whose power could be offset with a simple early game nerf. Maybe 2 SW should become 1 vill + 1 SW.

Basically if you slow down the early game, you slow down the entire civ to the point where they're good.

That's with basically any civ though. It's also an insanely big nerf btw, almost the most you could nerf a civ I think.

Nah, it's just one villager.

Read some old patch notes lying around, you'll see that ES often used starting villager count as ways to balance the game: http://www.agecommunity.com/ypatch1_01.aspx

By the way, the patch those notes refer to was published by ES after the initial Fanpatch from AS came out.

[sacredfool]

Read some old patch notes lying around, you'll see that ES often used starting villager count as ways to balance the game: http://www.agecommunity.com/ypatch1_01.aspx

By the way, the patch those notes refer to was published by ES after the initial Fanpatch from AS came out.

I agree with the point you are making but I'm not sure that that is correct.

Possibly you are referring to a fanpatch earlier than any I am aware of (or perhaps dev version of fp1.0 I suppose) but I am pretty sure fp 1.0 was ~dec 2008 which was like 6 months after the last ES patch. (It was before the robot patch though.)
Or at least I am fairly certain that it was released after WCG 2008 which was played on es1.01 whose notes you linked.

[iNcog]

Read some old patch notes lying around, you'll see that ES often used starting villager count as ways to balance the game: http://www.agecommunity.com/ypatch1_01.aspx

By the way, the patch those notes refer to was published by ES after the initial Fanpatch from AS came out.

I agree with the point you are making but I'm not sure that that is correct.

Possibly you are referring to a fanpatch earlier than any I am aware of (or perhaps dev version of fp1.0 I suppose) but I am pretty sure fp 1.0 was ~dec 2008 which was like 6 months after the last ES patch. (It was before the robot patch though.)
Or at least I am fairly certain that it was released after WCG 2008 which was played on es1.01 whose notes you linked.

Oops, no you're right, I meant that it was RE who released a patch after FP.

[Jaeger]

Why wouldn't slightly nerfing uhlan stats be the easiest way to balance germany? Right now 7 uhland destroy 5 huss with 3-4 uhlans left, we could make it so that there is only 2-3 uhlans left.

[Kaiserklein]

Why wouldn't slightly nerfing uhlan stats be the easiest way to balance germany? Right now 7 uhland destroy 5 huss with 3-4 uhlans left, we could make it so that there is only 2-3 uhlans left.

Uhlans have low hp so they get kited more efficiently by ranged units. That's why, for balance purposes, it seems fair they do better vs melee units, including other hand cavs.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Lol iro got nerfed quite hard in the 1.1. I can t imagine how op they were before :p

[Atomiswave]

The more I read this thread, the more i begin to understand that Ger is almost impossible to nerf correctly.

It's absolutely possible, there are so many ways to nerf a civ. I don't like messing with their civ bonus though, perhaps one of these:

Lowering uhlan RR, to make ranged cav a bit better against them, possibly have them die with 1 TC hit less.
2 SW in discovery becomes 1 SW + 1 vill.
Remove 7 skirm shipment.

Uhlans don't need a nerf in any other way than possibly raiding and that's rather their thing.
2SW doesn't need a nerf since you don't get any Uhlans with the shipment. Change 3SW into 2SW+10% gathering instead.
7 Skirmishers is already a mediocre at best shipment.

To me it's pretty apparent that the balance issue is the civ bonus being too strong. Just have all ages grant a static 2 Uhlans instead and test that.

That's too much, just count how many uhlan would Ger lose in age 3 and 4. That kind of linear nerf would make Ger subpar with tp's and completely useless without them.

[zoom]

To me it's pretty apparent that the balance issue is the civ bonus being too strong.

Non sense, there are plenty of viable ways to nerf Germans that don't touch their civ bonus. Remember they also have the second best early game economy (only French age with a better eco than Germans), which means they have a lot of resources in early colonial and this sets them up for very sharp builds like the 9 cav 7:40 semi-FF.

To illustrate this, the Portuguese civ bonus would look a lot better too if they aged up at 3:00 with 17 vills.

Absolutely none whatsoever. I never said they cannot be balanced in other ways. I'm saying I think the main problem with Germans is their ability to semi unscathed and their early Fortress Age mass as a result of their civ bonus being over the top. Clearly to me the best way to balance them is to then tone down the civilization bonus and I think that's the best way to do so.

[Jaeger]

Why wouldn't slightly nerfing uhlan stats be the easiest way to balance germany? Right now 7 uhland destroy 5 huss with 3-4 uhlans left, we could make it so that there is only 2-3 uhlans left.

Uhlans have low hp so they get kited more efficiently by ranged units. That's why, for balance purposes, it seems fair they do better vs melee units, including other hand cavs.

They can still do better, just don't have to win with half the uhlans remaining when 7 uhlans cost 50 more resources that 5 huss (ok maybe a little more since they cost mostly gold)

[Kaiserklein]

Why wouldn't slightly nerfing uhlan stats be the easiest way to balance germany? Right now 7 uhland destroy 5 huss with 3-4 uhlans left, we could make it so that there is only 2-3 uhlans left.

Uhlans have low hp so they get kited more efficiently by ranged units. That's why, for balance purposes, it seems fair they do better vs melee units, including other hand cavs.

They can still do better, just don't have to win with half the uhlans remaining when 7 uhlans cost 50 more resources that 5 huss (ok maybe a little more since they cost mostly gold)

But 5 huss > 6 uhlans. The cost of 5 huss is approx between 6 and 7 uhlans

[lordraphael]

Show hidden quotes

The more I read this thread, the more i begin to understand that Ger is almost impossible to nerf correctly.

It's absolutely possible, there are so many ways to nerf a civ. I don't like messing with their civ bonus though, perhaps one of these:

Lowering uhlan RR, to make ranged cav a bit better against them, possibly have them die with 1 TC hit less.
2 SW in discovery becomes 1 SW + 1 vill.
Remove 7 skirm shipment.

Uhlans don't need a nerf in any other way than possibly raiding and that's rather their thing.
2SW doesn't need a nerf since you don't get any Uhlans with the shipment. Change 3SW into 2SW+10% gathering instead.
7 Skirmishers is already a mediocre at best shipment.

To me it's pretty apparent that the balance issue is the civ bonus being too strong. Just have all ages grant a static 2 Uhlans instead and test that.

That's too much, just count how many uhlan Ger lose in age 3 and 4. That kind of linear nerf would make Ger subpar with tp's and completely useless without.

how is that to much. The age 4 uhlans that you get in age 4 are kind of irrelevant anyways because you rarely get to that stage so they can be ignored. Then there is only age 3 shipmets left which get a nerf, assuming all age 3 shipmets are being sent you lose like 8 or 9 uhlans that you could have had if you had gotten 3 uhlans instead of 2. However games rarely even go to such a late fortress stage and this isnt even the stage where germany is op. Its mainly the time frame within the first 3 to 4 age 3 shipments where germany excels most. So zois proposed change would mean only 4 !! Uhlans less within germanys OP time window , also remember that that change wouldnt alter the mercs shipments which are another fact that make ger really good. All in all i would even argue that that change does close to nothing

[Atomiswave]

@lordrapahel

Ok, i partly agree with your explanation, age 4 is unimportant, because its very rarely played with Ger. But age 3..... i watched many high level matches where Ger ends up playing late fortess with many shipments left. In that case, nerf is pretty significant. Almost all good age 3 deck is maxed out with cards, because Ger players plan to spend most time in fortress and get out most from shipments.

On the other hand, you are one of the best if not the best player on eso. I respect and value your opinion so I want to know if nerf we are discussing(+2 uhlan over the board) gets implemented into ep, would it be the only nerf/buff, or would you make more changes to Ger?

[zoom]

Almost any good deck of any civilization is full in Fortress Age...

[PoniPoika]

I would argue that there are three issues with German with regards to balance and design:

1. As stated by Zoi, the security and speed of their semi and the early fortress mass that results from this and in particular their age 3 civ bonus makes them somewhat too strong relative to current balance.
2. Following from this, the relative internal strength of their colonial and fortress play is rather out of balance.
3. They are completely reliant on tp play for their strength, which coupled with their single explorer means their strength varies drastically from map to map.

Based on this, I would argue that the goals for any design changes should be as follows:

Primarily, to slightly boost their colonial play and slightly nerf their fortress play to make both a viable option, but preferably with their fortress play remaining stronger to maintain civ design/individuality. Secondarily, to boost them on non-tp maps and perhaps nerf them on tp maps correspondingly.

And so I would propose these changes to the civ:

1. Nerf their fortress civ bonus to 2 uhlan, and their industrial bonus correspondingly to 3 uhlan. Based on testing the colonial bonus could potentially be nerfed to 1 uhlan as well.
2. Boost the 3 (+2) uhlan shipment to 4 (+2) uhlan.
3. Slightly boost their passive xp trickle rate.
4. (Potentially) rework the 3 sw (+2 uhlan) shipment to one of the following, or similar: 2 sw + 1 vill (+2 uhlan), 2 sw + gathering bonus for hunt/overall (+2 uhlan) or 3 sw (no uhlan).

Everything obviously subject to testing, but I feel these changes together and probably with slight changes here or there would maintain or slightly lower the overall strength of the civ while improving its internal balance and reducing the abusability of currently arguably broken builds.

With regards to what Incog said about benchmarking, I would argue that French (rather than German and French) should be currently held as the benchmark for overall strength (not design) and that it follows that it is sensible to slightly nerf German overall.

[Kaiserklein]

I would argue that there are three issues with German with regards to balance and design:

1. As stated by Zoi, the security and speed of their semi and the early fortress mass that results from this and in particular their age 3 civ bonus makes them somewhat too strong relative to current balance.
2. Following from this, the relative strength of their colonial and fortress play is rather out of balance.
3. They are completely reliant on tp play for their strength, which coupled with their single explorer means their strength varies drastically from map to map.

Based on this, I would argue that the goals for any design changes should be as follows:

Primarily, to slightly boost their colonial play and slightly nerf their fortress play to make both a viable option, but preferably with their fortress play remaining stronger to maintain civ design/individuality. Secondarily, to boost them on non-tp maps and perhaps nerf them on tp maps correspondingly.

And so I would propose these changes to the civ:

1. Nerf their fortress civ bonus to 2 uhlan, and their industrial bonus correspondingly to 3 uhlan. Based on testing the colonial bonus could potentially be nerfed to 1 uhlan as well.
2. Boost the 3 (+2) uhlan shipment to 4 (+2) uhlan.
3. Slightly boost their passive xp trickle rate.
4. (Potentially) rework the 3 sw (+2 uhlan) shipment to one of the following, or similar: 2 sw + 1 vill (+2 uhlan), 2 sw + gathering bonus for hunt/overall (+2 uhlan) or 3 sw (no uhlan).

Everything obviously subject to testing, but I feel these changes together and probably with slight changes here or there would maintain or slightly lower the overall strength of the civ while improving its internal balance and reducing the abusability of currently arguably broken builds.

With regards to what Incog said about benchmarking, I would argue that French (rather than German and French) should be currently held as the benchmark for overall strength (not design) and that it follows that it is sensible to slightly nerf German overall.

Your analysis is fine but imo the changes you suggest are too strong. If we remove 1 uhlan per fortress shipment and 2 uhlans for the 3 sw shipment (because they won't do the 2 sw + 1 vil/upgrade thing, 3 sw being part of the civ uniqueness, so they would choose 3 sw + 0 uhlan), it means you will have 5 uhlans vs 5 huss early on. You won't really be able to raid or to hold an early pressure at all. And then once you age up you lose even more uhlans.

It might even end up in changing the meta, if you give only 3 sw on the one hand and 6 uhlans on the other hand, people might just go for a 11 uhlan at 5:40 rush with a forward stable, or even bow/uhlan, pike/uhlan, or dop/uhlan rush. So yeah it would give them rush options but the ep team doesn't want to change the meta so I don't believe this will happen.

[PoniPoika]

I'm quite ambivalent with regards to the sw card change tbh, I just feel it's somewhat broken as is. You make a fair point regarding that. Indeed, I would definitely not choose the no uhlan change, but I do see it as a viable option.

[Kaiserklein]

Tbh I'd rather see 3 sw + 1 uhlans because it would nerf the early 2 uhlans raid which is really annoying (1 uhlan won't do much) and 6 uhlans < 5 huss but not by much. And for fortress we gotta remove some uhlans for sure, maybe 2 uhlans for each shipment is a bit hardcore, it indeed needs testings. I thought about 8 skirms + 2 uhlans, 7 skirms +3 uhlans and two 8 uhlans shipments.

[britishmusketeer]

I don't see the problem with simply changing 2SW to 1 SW + 1 vill

[Hazza54321]

I don't see the problem with simply changing 2SW to 1 SW + 1 vill

2sw isnt the problem

[thebritish]

I don't see the problem with simply changing 2SW to 1 SW + 1 vill

nobody sends 2W unless he is going eco anyways

[Kaiserklein]

I don't see the problem with simply changing 2SW to 1 SW + 1 vill

It's mainly about 2 reasons : the first is civ uniqueness, because them having settler wagons and thus good vils shipments is a specificity of the civ (nerfing this to 3 vils would make it standard). The second reason is germany having a slow start because they get their shipment later (basically 30 xp later = 15 sec later = approx 50 less food from those 2 sw) and because they don't have many crates. If you check the other euro civs, only ports and spain have as few starting crates as germany. But ports starts with 7 vils instead of 6, and spain has its 3 vils shipment earlier. So if you remove the 2 sw in discovery, germany is probs gonna have one of the worst euro starts (for sure the slowest), unless you add a crate or sth to compensate.

[iNcog]

Tbh I'd rather see 3 sw + 1 uhlans because it would nerf the early 2 uhlans raid which is really annoying (1 uhlan won't do much) and 6 uhlans < 5 huss but not by much. And for fortress we gotta remove some uhlans for sure, maybe 2 uhlans for each shipment is a bit hardcore, it indeed needs testings. I thought about 8 skirms + 2 uhlans, 7 skirms +3 uhlans and two 8 uhlans shipments.

Those are ugly changes though and changes which don't respect "civ design". It's something which should be respected. Having lopsided amounts of Uhlan per shipment is an ugly band-aid solution which I am personally against.

I don't believe that SW or Uhlan should be changed in German shipments. I think there are better ways to slightly nef Germany. Even today, as strong as Germany are, they aren't a civ that no other civ doesn't have an answer to.

[Kaiserklein]

Tbh I'd rather see 3 sw + 1 uhlans because it would nerf the early 2 uhlans raid which is really annoying (1 uhlan won't do much) and 6 uhlans < 5 huss but not by much. And for fortress we gotta remove some uhlans for sure, maybe 2 uhlans for each shipment is a bit hardcore, it indeed needs testings. I thought about 8 skirms + 2 uhlans, 7 skirms +3 uhlans and two 8 uhlans shipments.

Those are ugly changes though and changes which don't respect "civ design". It's something which should be respected. Having lopsided amounts of Uhlan per shipment is an ugly band-aid solution which I am personally against.

I don't believe that SW or Uhlan should be changed in German shipments. I think there are better ways to slightly nef Germany. Even today, as strong as Germany are, they aren't a civ that no other civ doesn't have an answer to.

Then you can either increase their xp penalty, nerf 8 skirms or nerf uhlans, I can't think of any other nerf. I mean, we could remove a food crate, but it makes no sense since germany is already slow. We could nerf wws or dops but they already suck. You don't want to touch SWs or uhlans, so we can't nerf 9 uhlans 8 uhlans 3 SW, nerfing 3 WW makes no sense. We could change their age up politicians, for example 400w or fast age, but without either of those germany becomes shit. What else do you suggest ?

Increasing xp penalty would be bad because it would make germany even worse on tp map (they wouldn't have a shipment ready when hitting colonial), and on tp maps they could still be powerful.
Nerfing uhlans doesn't really make sense because they're nothing special (better vs other cav / worse vs ranged units), except for raids (and even there they suffer of tc/towers fire, or even defending musks). Plus you're gonna say uhlans are the civ specificity so we can't touch them.
Nerfing 8 skirms to 7 skirms could be an idea but I don't think it would be enough at all.