Germans Discussion Thread

[Kaiserklein]

Puisque tu changes davis 2 fois par semaine difficile de dire quand je suis daccord avec toi et quand je le suis pas

Cest s?r que je change pas davis avec France/ger Mais quand on joue des civs un peu plus compliqu?es, on change un peu plus souvent davis.
Dailleurs on dit quil ny a que les imb?ciles qui ne changent pas davis.

Ouais enfin changer tout le temps davis ?a veut aussi dire quau final rien de ce que tu dis est fiable... Et russie je pense pas que ?a soit la civ la plus compliqu?e du monde, pourtant tu passais ta vie ? dire que c?tait la piiiiire civ du monde et maintenant tu dis que ?a passe... Pas de logique cest tout

[Kaiserklein]

Puisque tu changes davis 2 fois par semaine difficile de dire quand je suis daccord avec toi et quand je le suis pas

stop talking french i hate it when you do that hunny

French is sexy come on

[gibson]

MODZ PLZ WE ONLY SPEAK ANGLISH HERE

[Mimsy for President]

Bon allez on met fin au shitstorm que j'ai cr?e.

[edeholland]

Let's go English again. And about Germany in EP.

[Mimsy for President]

I don't think nerfing uhlans attack vs vills is a good idea. It's their specifity and as zoom keeps saying, we don't want to standardize the civs. 9 &' 8 uhlans cards, however, are WAY too good.

EDIT : lolz at that ninja "we" as if I were an EP staff member.

[momuuu]

9 uhlans ->' 8 uhlans?

is germany's expected winrate even above 55%?

[Darwin_]

I agree with Jerom. Make 9 uhlans 8, but keep the normal 8 Uhlan shipment. Also bring back 9 bows so colonial isn't as bad.

[Kaiserklein]

But 9 uhlan isn't even a great shipment, I can't see why we would nerf it. 8 skirms + 3 uhlans is so much better, because you get a bit of a mix (3 uhlans can protect a bit 8 skirms), because the skirms are already veteran, and because skirms are just so much more useful in fortress. Maybe switch this to 8 skirms + 2 uhlans if you really want a nerf, this and 3 sw + 1 uhlan

[Hazza54321]

i honestly think germany is overrated, they only have one very predictable option, it may be a strong option but you can design you build to counter it

[Mimsy for President]

i honestly think germany is overrated, they only have one very predictable option, it may be a strong option but you can design you build to counter it

gl then

[Garja]

Thing about Germans is that no single thing is extraordinarily OP but all things combined make the civ too strong.
All those shipment nerfs are pretty ugly from a design perspective. The rule is a number of ulhans equal to the age, so making exceptions strictly for balance is bad. And honestly don't even accomplish much.
Maybe a possible nerf is to really tune down the 2 ulhan shipment in fortress, even tho they are not that strong on paper. This way the civ bonus remains intact and the semi ff (the only real problem) is nerfed.
Another possible nerf is just to increase the shipment rate penalty. In that case however, Germans would probably struggle on no TP maps.
Third option is nerf ulhans in some way. They are already more cost efficient than hussars so it shouldn't be too penalizing for the civ.

[Hazza54321]

i honestly think germany is overrated, they only have one very predictable option, it may be a strong option but you can design you build to counter it

gl then

the only changes they need is 0.8x vs vills and light cav

[momuuu]

I think if there's any problem, it is that they can just always semi ff because a few of their shipments are just straight up insane in terms of power level. 8 skirm + 3 uhlan and 9 uhlan are beastly shipments that allow you to deal with almost every timing. Then you have 8 xbow + 2 uhlan (another insane shipment) that allows you to deal with any rush. Then add that their semi ff can't be matched if unharmed and you can have a perfect civ, even though they only have one build.

I'd argue that civs that only have one strong option and still seem to strong, might seriously be too strong.

[zoom]

Thing about Germans is that no single thing is extraordinarily OP but all things combined make the civ too strong.
All those shipment nerfs are pretty ugly from a design perspective. The rule is a number of ulhans equal to the age, so making exceptions strictly for balance is bad. And honestly don't even accomplish much.
Maybe a possible nerf is to really tune down the 2 ulhan shipment in fortress, even tho they are not that strong on paper. This way the civ bonus remains intact and the semi ff (the only real problem) is nerfed.
Another possible nerf is just to increase the shipment rate penalty. In that case however, Germans would probably struggle on no TP maps.
Third option is nerf ulhans in some way. They are already more cost efficient than hussars so it shouldn't be too penalizing for the civ.

Really? I thought it's basically just about their main civilization bonus being a bit too much. What other things combine to make them too strong?

Decreasing the Uhlans per age by 1 (and the shipment penalty slightly) should be great for balance, but potentially awful for gameplay...

[deuxballesman]

Can a change from 3sw to 2sw+1 settler be any good or enough to bring Germany back to good but not op civ?

[zoom]

Sure but I'd prefer just doing the AS FP thing and remove the Uhlans from that shipment.

[Garja]

Actually the 2sw+1 vill is better than axing 2 ulhans from just one card. And it would be a nice change but definetely not enough.

What other things combine to make them too strong?

Not just the free ulhans but also the SW card that are over par and also having a shipment of each unit type. Also extra mercs. Just lot of practical advantages.

Decreasing the Uhlans per age by 1 (and the shipment penalty slightly) should be great for balance, but potentially awful for gameplay...

Ye I agree that decreasing the free ulhans for every shipment would probably solve the civ problem entirely but would be really awful from a design standpoint.
Fine tuning the civ penalty is probably the best solution.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Also nerf uhlans attack vs vills. With 2 uhlans you can kill a vill in 3 hits, definitely op.

[_DB_]

Tbh I think it is impossible to balance Germany without changing meta and damaging the civ's features, just like India.

Germany sux on non tp maps, while they are op on tp maps. It's impossible to balance from both perspective.

Tbh the 9 black riders should be made 7 blackrider and 2 ulhans, because it is too strong like 5 mames lol. Same with 13 jaegers.

On reading zoom, I think what we can do is make age 3 shipments come with 2 ulhans only, instead of 3. While keeping 2 ulhans for age 2 too.

[Garja]

Germans don't even suck on no TP maps. They are a normal civ there.
Same amount of free ulhans in age2 and age3 is ugly (then suddendly 4 in industrial maybe?). Also it doesn't change much because it's essentialy 3 less ulhans at the critical point in the game. The real important free ulhans are those in colonial.

[zoom]

Actually the 2sw+1 vill is better than axing 2 ulhans from just one card. And it would be a nice change but definetely not enough.

I disagree. I wouldn't mind 2SW+10% SW gathering rates though...

Another idea would be to make the Uhlan bonus a flat 2 across all ages and reducing the penalty by 1 or 2pp.

[zoom]

Germans don't even suck on no TP maps. They are a normal civ there.
Same amount of free ulhans in age2 and age3 is ugly (then suddendly 4 in industrial maybe?). Also it doesn't change much because it's essentialy 3 less ulhans at the critical point in the game. The real important free ulhans are those in colonial.

Again, I disagree; 3 Uhlans extra with every Fortress Age shipment is highly impactful. Even more so considering the play-style of the civilization.

[Garja]

3 ulhans in total, basically -1 from each fortress shipment.
2 ulhans flat for any shipment saves it for the design perspective but is pointless. The issue is with Germans mass between 10 and 14 minutes or so. So essentially the time span of 4 fortress shipments. -4 ulhans makes among 30 or so makes zero difference.

[[Armag] diarouga]

The real problem is not age3 shipments, it is that germany can age3 and be unpunished in almost every MU.
Mercs aren t even that op.